Evolution's bottom line

National Center for Science Education ^ | 12 May 2006 | Staff

[PatrickHenry]

In his op-ed "Evolution's bottom line," published in The New York Times (May 12, 2006), Holden Thorp emphasizes the practical applications of evolution, writing, "creationism has no commercial application. Evolution does," and citing several specific examples.

In places where evolution education is undermined, he argues, it isn't only students who will be the poorer for it: "Will Mom or Dad Scientist want to live somewhere where their children are less likely to learn evolution?" He concludes, "Where science gets done is where wealth gets created, so places that decide to put stickers on their textbooks or change the definition of science have decided, perhaps unknowingly, not to go to the innovation party of the future. Maybe that's fine for the grownups who'd rather stay home, but it seems like a raw deal for the 14-year-old girl in Topeka who might have gone on to find a cure for resistant infections if only she had been taught evolution in high school."

Thorp is chairman of the chemistry department at the University of North Carolina.

[Havoc]

It is as straightforward as I propose. Many make hay about interpretations of the Bible. But it isn't interpretation.
People argue interpretation so that they may hide behind false constructs. When John Grisham tells us in the Partner that the woman in the end took the money and disappeared, we don't need to interpret that to know what he's saying. We need to read and understand the language in it's context. And that is the problem, not people's reading skills; but, their willingness to apply them in the face of people telling them that they are too 'stupid' or 'unlearned' to understand written language. If they convince you that you're too dumb and that you need them, they can tell you anything they want and you've subjected yourself to willfull ignorance rather than using your own capable capacities.

No, it isn't about interpretation. Scripture tells us plainly in numerous places all the marks which define followers of Christ. The terms are unambiguous and specific. And anyone can look at them and tell by their own
capacities whether the claim fits what they are following or whether it fits scripture or both - or neither. It is not beyond your capacity to know.

[metmom]

Probably. It certainly isn't the first time I've heard comments like that, although usually it's been from females who notice a difference in the way they're treated after people find out their female because they've used a gender neutral (gag, I hate sounding PC) name.

[andysandmikesmom]

Well, I dont agree with much of what you say, simply because all it takes it one look at the big range of 'Christian' religions that exist...and there are so many that exist, because all of them 'interpret' many things from the Bible, differently...if they all agree upon interpretations, there would not be all of these different 'Christian' religions...if the Bible was as clear cut and straightforward as you suggest, there would be only one Christian religion, where all Christians agreed with each other...I just dont see that existing today...

Anyway, altho we disagree on this, thanks for the conversation...

[Havoc]

I made it clear what long established teaching Hitler latched onto - replacement theology, specifically. Racism, I noted specifically, he derived from darwin, not Rome. You're a fraud playing at theatrics. Go nurse your non-wounds.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Ohhhh., so now "The honest ones agree with me." means something completely different than what it says."


It says that the honest readers agree with me that Havoc's post was anti-Catholic. It does not mean the *honest Catholics*. There is no way to read it as being an attack on Catholics. I have been DEFENDING them.

"Now given all your overflowing with bigotry Hitler=Christian=Creationist posts I hardly think the Catholic Church and Catholics would really want you taking up the banner of of righteous crusade in their defense."

Well, since Havoc thinks Catholics belong to a cult and are not Christian, talk to him about bigotry. I never said that Hitler was anything but a terrible and evil person whose views did not match anything close to what the vast majority of Christians believe. That doesn't change the fact he was a Christian. He was a terrible one.

"Nor would I predict that you will be believed very much should you continue to make this ridiculous claim,"

Do you think that Havoc's post was not an attack on Catholicism?

"However given the remote possibility that you are sincere in your crusade for Christianity and the Catholic Church and Catholics,"

Again talk to Havoc; he says that Catholics are not Christians.

"maybe now would be a good time to clarify all the negative inferences you have made toward the the Catholic Church and Christianity in general by way of your Hitler connections and suggestions and other tactics that you employ."

I already clarified everything I said. Why don't YOU be consistent and call Havoc out on his anti-Catholic attacks?

"And maybe now would be a good time to explain why you have felt the need to join in with the evos on all this mocking of Christianity, Catholics, people of faith in general."

I don't mock Christianity; you do with every post you make. Your lies do more against the image of Christianity than any imagined *mockery* you think I have done. (Which you conviently do not provide evidence for)

"And explain why then you seem to be blind to the anti-catholic ant-christian bigotry that constantly flows out of the evo side, some of it on this very thread."

Do you agree with Havoc's posts? Put up or shut up.

[RunningWolf]

All evos? Well that is a far stretched from 'the evos' which is what I said, but I will take one evo at at time unless they all join their little heads together.

Are you an evo? Whatever. In any event you have made some pretty wild a** bald assertions (on a religion thread even) that you never backed up.

I see you have no argument of substance, nor can you bring true hard, or real evo-evidence to the forum. But you are making an attempt to steer the focus away from that.

What to you is 'nailed dead center' carries all the accuracy and intensity of a toddler swinging her throw toy around.


Wolf

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"I made it clear what long established teaching Hitler latched onto - replacement theology, specifically."

Yes. You made it clear that he got that from Catholicism. You also made it quite clear that you think Hitler embraced Darwin, and the Church embraced Darwin, and that Darwin is intrinsically racist. Therefore, The Church's position is to embrace a racist theory. Your anti-Catholic bigotry is quite clear.

"Racism, I noted specifically, he derived from darwin, not Rome."

You said he got it from both. You made a point of mentioning the Church's embrace of Darwin (who you erroneously said was racist) and their much earlier persecution of Jews. In other words, you framed Hitler's acts as just an extension of Church teachings that go back centuries.

BTW, Darwin never wrote a book with the words *The Origin of the Species* in the title. And the *races* in that title was not human races.

[Havoc]

Well now you're begging the question. It is not that they interpret things differently. They have philosophies that cherrypick verses for what they can seem to say rather than what they do say - like what Carolina whatever his name is has been trying to do with what I wrote. He read more in than what was there in order to use it as a platform for attack.
It happens every day in politics right here on this forum. And you have, seemingly, no trouble in parsing what words mean when used by certain groups when it comes to politics. Yet you wish to claim it's too difficult when it comes to scripture..

The problem isn't in knowing all the groups, it's in knowing the scripture itself so well that when a group offers something that wreaks, you immediately know they're wrong.
I worked on Volkswagon Beetles for a number of years when I was younger. I stripped 18 of them completely from the ground up - for parts. At one point, I knew all the parts so well, that if you put a non-original part in front of me and tryed to say it was original, i could have told you it wasn't. I also could identify where individual bolts on the car went based on their size and length. There is no substitute for intimate familiarity.

As for your latter statement that if the Bible were clearcut there would be only one Christian religion.. it isn't that easy and you and I and everyone here knows that. Anything can and will be defrauded for power, money, ego, you name it. Christianity is no stranger to frauds who have sought both wealth and power because abusing Christianity can be Quite profitable. Afterall, followers are required to tithe 10% of their income in support of their ministers, teachers and mission work, etc. Doesn't take much imagination to figure that 10% of the income of, say, 5 Million people, is a lot of cash.. and power.

[Elsie]

There is nothing more to obtain.

AMEN!

NIV 2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

NIV Philemon 1:6
I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith, so that you will have a full understanding of every good thing we have in Christ.

[Havoc]

LOL. So, you embrace anti-semetism as charged by someone else, yet scream foul about not being racist - I charge I didn't make. What a troubled soul you are.

[Elsie]

...one of the functions of the bible was to undercut the Orthodox hebrew religion, the chief source of converts to christianity.

I would not necessarily say undercut, but to show the old 'observing of the law' was worthless and impossible to please God with.

(Read HEBREWS, Romans, Galatioans, Ephesians...)

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"LOL. So, you embrace anti-semetism as charged by someone else,"

? What the hell are you talking about? Stop making things up. I have never embraced antisemitism. I think it's an evil, comparable to your anti-Catholic bigotry.

I have been talking about your blatant and open anti-Catholic attacks. You know, when you posted this:

"The thing that penetrates the fog to my way of thinking is the fact that Hitler was Roman Catholic and Rome embraces Darwinism. Darwinism is, bottom line, racist as Darwin's original title for 'origin of the species' shows. Rome and Hitler both supported Darwin. Rome and Hitler both supported replacement theology. And Hitler was a dyed in the wool racist just as Darwin *appears* to have been. Rome had already much earlier in History been a plague to the Jews. Darwin just Gave Hitler another excuse. Go figure."

Or when you say that Catholicism is a cult.

[Coyoteman]

It is not that they interpret things differently. They have philosophies that cherrypick verses for what they can seem to say rather than what they do say...

And out of all the billion plus Christians, your version is the correct one?

Is that what your comment, "straight to hell..." back in post 792 implied for all the rest?

[As Art Hoppe used to say, "Save us from those who would save us!"]

[Elsie]

Psst Psst, its not working give it up.

But he THINKS it is....

[andysandmikesmom]

I do agree, with you on one point, that many frauds and charlatans will use religion for power, for money, for ego, for any other reason...we all have seen people that fit into this realm, thats for sure...

But people honestly for no wicked reasons, believe that their faith, is a Christian faith, that they are Christians, that they are following as best as they can, the teachings in the Bible, that they have place their fate of their salvation with Christ, and yet there will be those who will call them cultists, or non-Christians...

You and I are just not going to see eye to eye on this...so again, I thank you for the conversation, but frankly dont see that you will change my mind, nor will I change yours...we each have a differing viewpoint...

[Havoc]

Catholicism is a cult and I can defend that position.

[andysandmikesmom]

'time to go make a lasagne' placemarker...

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"But he THINKS it is...."

So, do YOU agree with Havoc's post? Do YOU think that the Catholic Church is a cult?

Or are you going to evade the question while tacitly supporting his statements?

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Catholicism is a cult and I can defend that position."

And you are an anti-Catholic bigot and I HAVE defended that position.

[Havoc]

Billion plus *christians* - you're begging the question.

As for what I implied- I implied nothing. If you don't have the correct understanding of salvation and therefore do not have the correct approach to it, you are hellbound. No quibbling and no pretense. It's common sense which you would otherwise get and a distinction you would otherwise have no problem making from your religion's mindset; so, spare us the mock rage. If you hold the keys to a door and fail to insert the key and open the door, you will remain outside. Thus, it stands to reason that if you are handed the wrong key, or no key, or are told the wrong way to use it in unlocking the mechanism, you will remain outside. Merely saying that you are the 'keymaster' having a key and directions doesn't get you through the door.