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To: From many - one.

In my case, I accept your statements provisionally.

I have interacted sufficiently with you on FR to be reasonably certain that not only would you not make deliberate misrepresentation on this issue, but that you would not deign to do so with any topic conceivable. The proviso has nothing to do with any suspicions concerning your honesty or integrity, but with a question of possible error in observation/analysis.

As I said, I am at a loss to see how you pulled it off.

I will add that I suspect fear and humiliation and pain of some form did indeed act as factors in the upbringing techniques you used. I would require nearly infinite information countering this suspicion to abandon it.

You and others have made a few unsupported and sentimental statements-as-fact concerning "innate/inborn/born-with" characteristics which run counter to everything I have observed of very young humans. I propose that it is possible that you have mistaken a result for a cause.

Humans are born needy and self-centered.
The parents are providers of nourishment and warmth and comforts of all sorts.
The kid likes this.
Sooner or later (usually very soon... within weeks) the child experiences an episode of unrequited want - the parent is not there or is not in a position to provide.
The child experiences pain, anxiety, primitive fear of loss.
The child reacts to these negative stimuli in various ways, one of the more common of which is the development of propitiation and endearment strategies.

Perhaps these strategies are instinctual, perhaps not.

What seems certain is that they are not uniformly expressed and do not equate to an ethical paradigm - they are, again, elements of the potential for such a paradigm.

Unless some significant evidence is provided which demonstrates the existence of humans born with an ethical or moral code which, from birth, causes them to choose "what is right" over "what I like" - I ain't buying it.


872 posted on 03/17/2006 7:16:55 PM PST by King Prout (DOWN with the class-enemies at Google! LONG LIVE THE PEOPLE'S CUBE!)
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To: King Prout

Thank you for the compliment. I shluld also say that you are, by far, the most dispassionate of all the folk who have ever disagreed with me on the subject.

I am fully aware that my anecdotal statements are only one step up from useless. I am also aware that just not hitting is not enough to be a good parent, firm expectations and good role-modelling are right up there in importance. Along with a swarm of other things.

The innate characteristics I refer to, though, are anything but sentimental (those who know me would laugh hyseterically at the thoughtof me sentimental).

They are simply basic biology: any social mammal that is not accepted by its parent(s) is going to be food for something, possibly even mom. Most culture is acquired by imitation.

Designing a good piece of objective research in this area would be extraordinarily difficult, but I think it might be worthwhile.

Continued slow response warning. My heavy work season is just starting and I'm heading out soon for some outdoor project prep.


876 posted on 03/18/2006 6:32:09 AM PST by From many - one.
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