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I've been lurking long enough on FR to have seen a number of threads on this topic (often generating far more heat than light), but remain puzzled about the problems this topic seems to generate. Like other British Conservatives, I look to the United States as our one great ally and the world's greatest defender of liberty, but I do not understand why such an enlightened nation is embroiled in a senseless science vs. religion turmoil--and even more puzzled that some whom on other issues I recognise as fellow conservatives are, on this topic, so vehement in their assault on science. I, and many, many others here are staunch defenders and admirers of America, but when it comes to this controversy over Darwin, we just don't get it. Intelligent explanations of the real issue here would be appreciated!
1 posted on 02/20/2006 5:33:51 AM PST by ToryHeartland
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To: ToryHeartland
Churches urged to back evolution

They just don't get it, do they?
2 posted on 02/20/2006 5:37:20 AM PST by JamesP81
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To: ToryHeartland

I see it as much of an attack by science on religion. That's the problem. The science classroom should teach evolution as the theory that science accepts. It should not attack people's beliefs in intelligent design, and that's the biggest rub. There are professors who punish students who do not give up their religous views. This kind of bigotry in the scientific community is uncalled for. There are extremes on both sides.


3 posted on 02/20/2006 5:38:13 AM PST by Always Right
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To: ToryHeartland
Teaching the idea threatens scientific literacy among schoolchildren, it said.

I guess that's fair, sort of. So does that mean public schools should be urged to back Bible classes so that Biblical literacy among school children is not threatened? Or is it a one-way street (usually is when it comes to stuff like this)?
4 posted on 02/20/2006 5:39:10 AM PST by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: ToryHeartland

So we all have to believe in the religion of evolution? Where is the tolerance? Where is the inclusiveness? The mullahs of Science need to be aware that millions of us will never bring up our children to believe that they are ape-men instead of created by God in His image. Science giants of the past have been Christians who believed that God created the world. Today's science pygmies are too insecure to have their religious ideas about evolution challenged. Whose fault is that?


7 posted on 02/20/2006 5:45:07 AM PST by kittymyrib
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To: ToryHeartland
Intelligent explanations of the real issue here would be appreciated!

Sadly, you are unlikely to find any such explanations here. But I'll give it a try.

Evangelical Christians, a group I count myself among, believe in the Biblical story of creation, which is incompatible with evolution. Before you say that in Genesis, a day could mean a long time, do a google search on the meaning of the hebrew word 'yom'. Suffice it to say, the grammar and sentence construction of the Biblical creation is not compatible with evolution. We think that schools should recognize that evolution is far from proven and quit teaching it like it's some kind of indisputable fact.

Evolutionists feel like this push is an assault on science straight from the dark ages. They feel like ID isn't science and is designed to tear down evolution and thus, devalue science and the scientific method. They think the ultimate end result of this will be a return to charging scientists with witchcraft and setting up a Taliban-style religious theocracy.

As for this article, asking the churches to get behind evolution is nuts. The evangelical churches aren't going to support something that disagrees with their beliefs.
8 posted on 02/20/2006 5:46:54 AM PST by JamesP81
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To: ToryHeartland

There are many answers.

Most scientists are liberals who support our opponents. Some are inclined to applaud anyone who fights with them, even if they personally think the fight is stupid.

The best defense is a good offense. By tying up liberal lawyers defending against our lawsuits, they will not have the time or money to bring lawsuits against us.

We are a free country, so there is no official truth. Whatever the voters want to believe, that is what should be taught in the public schools.

The Darwinian model is unsophisticated, and predates our knowledge of how DNA works. If the brain can think, why can't the cell nucleus be said to think? We could generate a computer nodel of DNA, and test the theory of evolution in a simulation.

Why should all those subatomic particles obey the laws arbitrary sets of mathemathical formulae? It must be that at the subatomic level, matter is permeated and intermingled with the Divine Logos. Kai su, Plotine?


9 posted on 02/20/2006 5:52:55 AM PST by proxy_user
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To: ToryHeartland
Unfortunately, the problem isn't that conservative churches don't back evolution. The problem is that "mainline" churches don't back the Bible.

Anyway, welcome to FR, Tory.

10 posted on 02/20/2006 5:53:06 AM PST by far sider
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To: ToryHeartland
The problem is not at all over "evolution" but rather on the insistence of some very vocal spokespeople who insist that naturalism is the only correct philosophical underpinning for "science."

Of course, this is utter foolishness, supported neither by the history of science itself (many of the "founders" of modern science were passionate Christians), nor by the scientific method. A Christian (or theist) looks at the laws of the Universe as the general workings of God in His creation, whereas a naturalist says we must work in the lab "as if" there were nothing but what is observable -- even if we currently do not have accurate means to observe it.

This is -of course- not about "science" at all, but about the philosophical underpinnings of science. A Christian sees God in all of life, and insists that the evidences for His existence, wisdom, morality and power are abundantly evident in creation. The Christian further claims that the inability to "see" these things comes not from the lack of evidence, but the deliberate unwillingness to see them. In fact, the modern Christian scientists claim echo Paul when he says that this blindness is the result of deliberate repression of clear and plain evidence, based on a desire to escape the presence of God (cf Romans 1:18-20).

This is certainly validated in statements by certain prominent men of science like Thomas Huxley when he claimed that he adopted a naturalistic worldview more from a desire to pursue sexual activity without guilt than from evidentiary examination, and from Thomas Watson's statement that he and Crick were driven to discover dna's structure primarily by a desire to escape a worldview which included God.

Since much of American evangelicalism is shallow, surface, uninformed and silly.... AND since we have hopped into bed with the Republican Party as though it was the messiah, there are all sorts of excesses and embarrassments in what they are trying to do. (to forstall the hail of slings and arrows, I will add that I have voted Republican in every election since Nixon).

The bottom line here is that it is a debate over how science should be done, not over whether "evolution" is true or not. Lots of Christiasn and genuinely confused secular scientists gloss right past it, but it is the only thing of real substance being barked about.

11 posted on 02/20/2006 5:56:50 AM PST by When_Penguins_Attack (Smashing Windows, Breaking down Gates. Proud Mepis User!!!!)
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To: ToryHeartland

The debate is about the proper role of the teaching of religion.

For some reason Creatinists/IDers (CRIDers as I call them) believe that Creationism is an "alternate theory" even though it doesn't meet any of the scientific criteria as a "theory." It is like saying "angels hold planes aloft" is an alternate "theory" for aerodynamics.

Religion should be introduced as philosophy/theology/mythology. Now the other day I read where they didnt want to discuss religion in a phiosophy class and THAT was an attack on religion.


12 posted on 02/20/2006 5:57:47 AM PST by freedumb2003 (American troops cannot be defeated. American Politicians can.)
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To: ToryHeartland

Another problem is that many don't just believe in evolution. Many people are hard left athiests who use evolution as a bludgeon against the church. Unfortunately, we have little choice but to fight evolution everywhere, for this reason.


13 posted on 02/20/2006 5:58:00 AM PST by JamesP81
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To: ToryHeartland
In 1995, the official Position Statement of the American National Association of Biology Teachers (NABT) accurately states the general understanding of major science organizations and educators:

The diversity of life on earth is the outcome of evolution: an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable, and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification that is affected by natural selection, chance, historical contingencies and changing environments.

Or in the words of the famous evolutionist, George Gaylord Simpson, "Man is the result of a purposeless, and natural process that did not have him in mind."

How do they know the process was unsupervised?

How do they know the process was mindless?

How do they know the process was purposeless?

Their statements are problematic in that they are unscientific. It cannot be proven that evolutionary processes are "purposeless" or that humans were "not in mind." Science cannot demonstrate these assumptions either way ... and that's the problem with their position. They become proponents of a religion of atheism; I say religion because their conclusion is NOT science, it is faith ... just as much as OUR conclusion is faith. Clearly, their definition is diametrically opposed to any concept of a personal creator being involved in the evolutionary process.

To be fair, as was reported by Brendan Sweetman, Ph.D. in a letter to The Kansas City Star August 21, NABT removed the language after it was pointed out by the philosopher, Alvin Plantinga, and the theologian Huston Smith, that their guideline was really an implied atheism and went beyond what the scientific evidence for the theory could show. However, the concept of natural selection (absent a creator) remains the central tenant of evolution as taught in the classrooms. The definition of natural selection includes unsupervised, mindless and purposeless. Clearly, in defining evolution they have left the world of science and entered the world of philosophy and theology, and established atheism (a religion) in our classrooms.
15 posted on 02/20/2006 6:04:54 AM PST by GarySpFc (de oppresso liber)
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To: ToryHeartland

"Churches urged to back evolution"

And Bin Laden urged US to convert to Islam.


16 posted on 02/20/2006 6:07:45 AM PST by ryan71
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To: ToryHeartland
...but when it comes to this controversy over Darwin, we just don't get it

As many Americans never understood that whole monarchy concept you all have going on over there.
If you choose to believe that you're evolved from simians, fish, or even lichen, so be it. Just return the courtesy and allow us 'foolish believers' to continue thinking we were created by God.

Cheers!

17 posted on 02/20/2006 6:10:13 AM PST by jla (Urge Mike Pence to run for POTUS in '08: www.house.gov/formpence/IMA/contact.htm)
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To: ToryHeartland
Where is the intelligence in basing a theory upon an unprovable conclusion..... God did not form fully grown human beings (more than two)?
19 posted on 02/20/2006 6:15:12 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: ToryHeartland

The purpose of Intelligent Design/Creationsim is to destroy and discredit the Conservative Movement. The people that push this crap are either Evil, because they know this is a Lie, or they are ignorant dupes and Useful Idiots and don't know any better, in which case they should stay off these Threads because they just spew the same refuted-garbage time after time.


20 posted on 02/20/2006 6:21:54 AM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; Shryke; RightWhale; ...
Evolution Ping

The List-O-Links
A conservative, pro-evolution science list, now with over 350 names.
See the list's explanation, then FReepmail to be added or dropped.
To assist beginners: But it's "just a theory", Evo-Troll's Toolkit,
and How to argue against a scientific theory.

21 posted on 02/20/2006 6:25:30 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: ToryHeartland
senseless science vs. religion turmoil

Yes, and it has been a war on religion since prayer was removed from schools. Something that was practiced for ~150 years with the same Constitution. In any case, the science will stand if it is true. The mere fact that a label is not permitted because it establishes religion is evidence of the warfare in this nation. The Democrats like some of the 15%(or the 7% Republicans) of Americans choose to filibuster rather than accede to the wishes of the electorate. As the case in Pennsylvania shows, the people should decide, not the courts nor a minority. The outcome in Pennsylvania may not be final, however.

There exists no vehement assault on science in general, only on those areas that have claimed to have swept the field of competitors. Finally, as it is proper and fitting in a democratic form of government, all warfare should be decided at the ballot box, not in the streets or in the courts.

22 posted on 02/20/2006 6:26:30 AM PST by AndrewC (Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
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To: ToryHeartland
I do not understand why such an enlightened nation is embroiled in a senseless science vs. religion turmoil--and even more puzzled that some whom on other issues I recognise as fellow conservatives are, on this topic, so vehement in their assault on science.

It's a mystery to those of us on the pro-evolution (i.e. rational) side too. But now that you're here, you'll get a real taste of the turmoil.

Thanks for posting the article.

23 posted on 02/20/2006 6:28:22 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: ToryHeartland
But the judge ruled this violated the constitution, which sets out a clear separation between religion and state.

Jut picking a nit, but it's CHURCH and State..not 'religion'.

------------

Intelligent explanations of the real issue here would be appreciated!

IMHO, the evolution vs creationism uproar is quite simple.

Evolutionists maintain that everything was created by a biomechanical process, brought about by the trial and error of nature. This makes humanity an accident.

Creationists believe the world was conceived and constructed by a higher being, brought about by His will and design. This makes humanity a miracle.

While creationism doesn't necessarily exclude evolution, evolution DOES exclude creationism.

You'd think in a land where we have the ability to freely discuss anything, we'd be able to find a middle ground.

------------

As a historical footnote, the Bible was used regularly in schoolrooms up to about 1950.

24 posted on 02/20/2006 6:32:25 AM PST by MamaTexan (I am NOT a ~legal entity~, nor am I a *person* as created by law!)
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To: ToryHeartland
I always find it amusing when science educators warn of the threat to education from ID. As if ID were the reason for falling scores and the dismal performance of science in American education and not the educators themselves.

The monoploistic educational bureaurcracy has difficulty when the public attempts to influence education. This explains the passionate opposition to school vouchers as well as the rise of home schooling. ID is not nearly the threat to science as is the dogma emminating from the Ivory Tower which will use the courts and the ACLU to impose their will on a recalcitrant public. In other words; how dare the peasants lecture their betters.

And finally, this ultimately goes back to the establishment clause in the US Constitution and how it should be interpretted vis-a-vis schools and religion. Since the 1960's the courts have upheld a God-free zone in the American classrooms, quite often to absurd lengths. ID is the push back.

28 posted on 02/20/2006 6:35:17 AM PST by Pietro
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