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To: Californiajones
They were eyewitnesses to the things that He said and did.

Like Mark, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul?

If Mark was an 'eyewitness' why would he need to relate what Peter said? (cf. Eusebius and Papias)
And if Matthew was an eyewitness why would he have to borrow so much from non-eyewitness Mark?
Luke, to his credit, admits that he depended on the testimony of others. That and some liberal 'borrowing' of Flavius Josephus.
John, of 'Gospel of John' fame, seems to have a pretty high Hellenic-style Christology for an unlettered and unlearned Jewish fisherman. Not to mention that he didn't seem to care to much for Jews ...
Paul claims he was blined by a bright light and heard a voice. Stuff which now days usually gets you admitted to hospital, but I guess in the first century you could become a shaman and found a religion.

Therefore, if they went to their deaths voluntarily for the sake of His name, it is proof that they believed that Jesus was who He said He was and they were willing to die for what they knew, firsthand, to be true.

So what about the followers of Zeus, Aphrodite, or Apollo? Or the followers of Allah?
Jan Huss, the Waldensians, the Cathars all died for what they 'believed'.

Is that proof that they 'believed'? Certainly.
Is that proof that what they believed was true? Certainly not.

1,712 posted on 02/16/2006 11:14:36 PM PST by dread78645 (Intelligent Design. It causes people to misspeak)
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To: dread78645
Paul claims he was blined by a bright light and heard a voice. Stuff which now days usually gets you admitted to hospital, but I guess in the first century you could become a shaman and found a religion.

Nice cheap shot, but the difference is that before the bright light, etc., he had gone around dispossessing people of their homes and putting them to death: and AFTER the revelation became better behaved.

Kinda the opposite of those Moose-limb terrorists, BTW.

Cheers!

2,176 posted on 02/18/2006 9:11:48 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: dread78645
Hey, just found time to see your post.

What is the best legal standard for evidence?

Eyewitnesses.

God, who knows all about legal evidence as all of our modern law is derived from Moses (and therefore Blackstone) knew that the testimony of eyewitness account would be enough for Jesus.

If you don't like the disciples' version there's always Josephus for extrabiblical corroboration. PS you still aren't "getting it" The point is the disciples LIVED WITH AND SAW JESUS UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL IF THEY KNEW HE WAS A FRAUD, THEY WOULD NOT LAY DOWN THEIR LIFE FOR HIM. Apollo Buddha and all the other dudes you mentioned did not have this same first hand testimony.
2,255 posted on 02/23/2006 1:02:05 AM PST by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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