Designed to deceive: Creation can't hold up to rigors of science

CONTRA COSTA TIMES ^ | 12 February 2006 | John Glennon

[whispering out loud]

While I appreciate your observations, I do not claim the "one true biblical belief", just that I believe solely in the scriptures themselves, and not in mans interpretations of them. "Any man mind you", that includes my pastor, and or the set doctrines, and bylaws of my church. If someone, bringing me scripture, in context, can prove one of my beliefs wrong, then I concede to their wisdom on the word. I do believe according to the scriptures, that "Each man should work out his own salvation with fear and trembling" that being said, I do believe it is each persons duty, and responsibility to research the scriptures for themselves, not ignoring others views, and beliefs on the Bible, but at the same time not completely writing them off either until you have conclusively studied themselves for yourself. I hope this sheds some light on my biblical beliefs.

[andysandmikesmom]

Yes, thanks for the reply...

[longshadow]

I'd pretty much guarantee up front that any model your "math" represents doesn't consider any of that.

Something tells me you shouldn't hold your breath waiting to see your interlocutor post the Lotka-Volterra equation.

;-)

[Doctor Stochastic]

Just a negative logarithm. (pH)

[Havoc]

What would affect the 'reasonableness' of 400mph is the understanding of the underlying physics involved in getting the car to reach that speed given its environment.

You made my point. If you Know something, then assumptions based on what you know are reasonable within limits. If you don't know something, then assumptions with regard to unknowns are blind and therefore not "reasonable". Practicality.

When using Carbon 14 to date recent ages, potential variances are taken into consideration.

That's what I hear..

Do you really think scientists would miss something as obvious as that?

Apparently they did for some time as the fact of variable nature of 14C sent everyone into a CYA dance for a while. I remember the flurry of articles about it.

If half-lives were shorter in the past there would be evidence of such. Really, how would you know what that evidence would be? Some have suggested that "assuming" the conditions of the origin of the earth, the result would be extreme heat that would have destroyed the earth. That's great if their assumptions are right. Given they don't know the conditions and that any such assumptions are inherently unreasonable as a result, No one can really say heat would be problematic.. much less detectable.

[Havoc]

Right. That would be ideology speaking, that last line. Dating methodologies being what they are..

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply, dear brother in Christ!

I continue, though, simply to ask the question of what does and does not appear in the text. It is a fair question, and it should be the starting point from which honest discussion flows.

So very true! That is where the discussion must begin.

It is important to be honest about what is overt and what is interpretive or opinion.

Indeed. Moreover, I assert that God the Father has revealed Himself through the following: Jesus Christ (the Word or Logos), the Spirit (both as a Person of the Trinity and as the indwelling Holy Spirit), Scriptures (Old and New Testaments, etc.) and Creation (physical and spiritual).

Seems to me that doctrines – including the understanding of creation itself - are based on which of the revelations are believed and the weight given to them by the believers. Perhaps that could help in figuring the numerical value you mentioned?

[Alamo-Girl]

No apologies necessary, dear RadioAstronomer. When we are hurting, we should expect our friends to "be there".

[Havoc]

I'm not attempting to marry the two - religion and science. How you get to that is amazing. It is nowhere proferred as the case. Yet, it is the case that largely Christian minds are responsible for the mere existance of Science today and saw it thrive to get here. Christians had and have no problem with science. As I noted, calling into question methods or conclusions does not put science at a whole at risk. It may put method or conclusion at risk - that's about it. If a method or conclusion is so shoddy as to warrant scuttling, whatever rests upon it is no more worthy. A faulty foundation is doom for a home, a logical construct or an ideology. More simply stated, false premises do not a truth make.

[dread78645]

Actually, our understanding of physics is already in the Bible. If Renaissance thinkers had bothered to read Isaiah, they would have noticed that God said that He holds up the "sphere of the earth" -- completely debunking that flat earth theory. It is said that Columbus took out his ships upon that scripture alone.

Yep. Those heathen renaissance thinkers should have just gotten into their time machine and traveled to 1961 and got a copy of the 'New American Standard Bible' or to 1993 for a copy of 'The Message Bible' (the only versions that have a differing translation of Isa 40:22: 'vault' and 'ball').
The dummies!

< snip gold nonsense> So I'd say that the Bible is pretty much ahead of the ball on physics and science.

No it's not and neither are you.

Lying would be stating what I know not to be true as true.

;->

PH -- 'purified gold is transparent' has got to be a your-brain-on-creation winner.

[fabian]

It's only logical that some intelligence has to be the maker of the original dna code. We always know there is a maker to say, an automobile. It just couldn't gather itself together and yet our bodies are alot more complex.

[dread78645]

They were eyewitnesses to the things that He said and did.

Like Mark, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul?

If Mark was an 'eyewitness' why would he need to relate what Peter said? (cf. Eusebius and Papias)
And if Matthew was an eyewitness why would he have to borrow so much from non-eyewitness Mark?
Luke, to his credit, admits that he depended on the testimony of others. That and some liberal 'borrowing' of Flavius Josephus.
John, of 'Gospel of John' fame, seems to have a pretty high Hellenic-style Christology for an unlettered and unlearned Jewish fisherman. Not to mention that he didn't seem to care to much for Jews ...
Paul claims he was blined by a bright light and heard a voice. Stuff which now days usually gets you admitted to hospital, but I guess in the first century you could become a shaman and found a religion.

Therefore, if they went to their deaths voluntarily for the sake of His name, it is proof that they believed that Jesus was who He said He was and they were willing to die for what they knew, firsthand, to be true.

So what about the followers of Zeus, Aphrodite, or Apollo? Or the followers of Allah?
Jan Huss, the Waldensians, the Cathars all died for what they 'believed'.

Is that proof that they 'believed'? Certainly.
Is that proof that what they believed was true? Certainly not.

[RunningWolf]

I realize that to control the source is to control the conversation, but your control of the source is absolutely the most clear cut case of close minded thinking I have ever seen displayed.

You do not fool anyone, just because you try to set the rules for a debate, that doesn't make you right, nor does it make the ABSOLUTE LIE of evolution true.

You know. Those things can be picked up almost immediately. Here is my answer to them.

2 December, 2004
CHINA
Party’s secret directives on how to eradicate religion and ensure the victory of atheism
The Department of Propaganda has prepared a new paper to promote atheism and ban religions and superstitions. It is intended to stop conversions among leading party cadres and youth.
Beijing (AsiaNews) – ‘Westernising’ and ‘disintegrating’ trends in the name of religion threaten China and the government must “be patient and meticulous in imperceptibly influencing the people”, especially the young and leading party cadres, so as to stop the “growth of religions, cultic organisations and superstitions and strengthen Marxist atheism”. These are the main points presented in a paper prepared by the Department of Propaganda of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC) to stop the growth of religion and spirituality among the Chinese. Conversions among the young and leading party cadres are of particular concern. For this reason, the government is particularly interested in exploiting all the means of communication at its disposal, especially Internet, as privileged “tools to conduct Marxist atheism propaganda and education”. According to the paper, Internet is a new resource for improving the moral development of the young who are its greatest users in the country. In a summit on religions held in Beijing in October, the government stressed that, given China’s special conditions, it is opposed to “laws based on western mentality”. Religious freedom is in this sense a concession of the state, not an innate human right. The secret paper for party members only was leaked to the West by party members opposed to the government’s atheist policies and released to the public by a Canadian Website: The Voice of the Martyrs. It is divided in eight parts; here’s a synopsis by AsiaNews of its main points: Part one stresses the importance of increasing research, education and distribution of Marxist atheist information in order to stop the growth of cultic organisations and superstitions. ‘Westernising’ and ‘disintegrating’ trends in the name of religion are seen as a threat to China; hence, the importance given to the expansion and purity of the CPC and to improving every aspect—spiritual, moral, scientific and cultural—of national life. Part two explains how to broaden the appeal of Marxist atheism and its goals, especially among the young and leading cadres of the party, who have been rediscovering faith and spirituality The paper insists on the “need to promote the development of every individual in terms of the needs of the people”. Propaganda and education are key elements requiring “patient and meticulous efforts to imperceptibly influence the people, above all the young and leading party cadres”. Part three emphasises the goals of Marxist propaganda. There is an absolute need to “eliminate fatuity (i.e. weakness or imbecility of mind) and superstitions” and replaced them with the norms and dogmas of “scientific thought”. The people must be helped to recognise “the general process and rule of the development of human society” so that it can “voluntarily and firmly stick to the historical view of Marxist materialism.” Reaching this goal means educating people in the “natural sciences” so that they can have “the basic knowledge about life, [. . .] the universe, the origin of life, the rule on human evolution, and correctly deal with various natural phenomena, natural disasters, birth, aging, disease and death.” The paper stresses the importance of good health and healthy bodies which must be promoted by helping people “acquire the habit of good behaviour, and scientifically and reasonably conduct of physical exercises, health care, living, sightseeing, recreation and entertainment.” Health care, sports and leisure must find inspiration in Marxist atheism and follow the practical directives of party members. Integrating Marxism in the education system is the main focus of part four. This is to be achieved through Deng Xiaoping’s four standards, namely ideals, morals, knowledge and discipline. The paper reiterates the party’s absolute monopoly over education and the need to “stick to the principle of separation of national education and religion [and] integrate Marxist atheism propaganda and education into the syllabi of the course of political theory”. Part five explains how to integrate Marxist doctrine in everyday spiritual activities. Marxism must permeate all activities in everyone’s life so as “to change old habits into new ones, conducting people’s cultural and sports activities, satisfying people’s spiritual and cultural demands, [and] popularising knowledge on laws, rules and regulations”. Media are dealt with in part six. Television, radio and newspapers represent important channels through which “Marxist atheism propaganda and education can be conducted”. Internet is particularly prized as a new frontier from where to broaden the appeal of Marxist culture. “We shall enrich,” the paper says, “the pages and sections related to morals of some key websites, strengthen the instruction and management over online comments, and make Internet a new tool to conduct Marxist atheism propaganda and education.” Part seven is dedicated to integrating Marxist atheism research, as a key subject, into the social science. Superstition, pseudoscience and cults are harmful and must be removed from the minds of leading party cadres and the young. This will be done by strengthening Marxist atheism departments, training of talented people, running well atheism research institutions and related departments in colleges and universities. Lastly, part eight highlights the importance of spreading Marxism in order strengthen the power of the party leadership. Party members, especially leading party cadres, must boost “the party culture continuously, firmly hold a materialist worldview, and voluntarily set an example in studying and disseminating Marxist atheism” among the people. (DS)
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Wolf

[dread78645]

Hee hee. Whatcha gonna do now?

Clean the beer out of my keyboard ...

[dread78645]

Scanning back through this, I see your assertions about the Bible being some sort of scientific text have been crushed. I mean crushed. Then the parts were run through a crusher. Then the crushed parts were crushed. Then the remaining powder was scattered to the 4 winds.

But you wouldn't want to rub it in ...

;->

[dread78645]

Yes it is, but I am a masochist and I do it any way. :)

You too, huh?

[Havoc]

I think in speaking of white gold, you are talking about what is done with it to give it strength in use as jewelry etc.
Adding nickel is obviously NOT part of any purification process. Purifying Gold removes what is not gold - it does not include adding things to the gold, that is counter to the concept. IE, you don't seem to be paying attention, are misguided in your response or are being misleading.

[Thatcherite]

one thing is consistant [sic] though, barring catastrophies [sic], population does continue to grow.

No it doesn't. Some populations are growing. Others are diminishing. Every species population is in a struggle for limited resources (mostly food supplies) with the other species in their environment. That is why natural selection occurs. To take modern human population growth, which has resulted from a technological explosion over the last few hundred years, and extrapolate it backwards to the time before that technology, is simply a nonsense. Human hunter-gatherer societies that existed prior to agriculture (invented a few-thousand years ago) were very low-density and there was no particular reason for the population to grow.

[Petronski]

oblate spheroid :-)

LOL

[Havoc]

and extrapolate it backwards to the time before that technology

Past technology isn't necessarily indicative of backwardness as relates to food production much less anything else. There is a field of archeology referred to as 'forbidden' because technologies uncovered as belonging to the distant past paint a picture incompatible with what the current regime in science wishes to be promulgated as true. Progress technologically seems to parallel laxness of morality within any given civilization. Advanced civilizations can without a doubt be the cause of their own demise. And forbidden archeology seems to paint that very picture.