[jennyp]

The first half of the article is a standard summary of the creation/evolution debate. But the last half, posted here, really moves the ball forward in the debate: Hudgins brings out into the open the fears that are driving creationists & the ID movement.

I've been harping on this point in these parts for years. It's good to see a "real" Objectivist writer get the argument into print.

[Muleteam1]

Wow! Nearly 500 posts and no solution yet? I'll be back tomorrow for the answer.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"What are creationists afraid of?"

It's an irrational fear of the truth and a classic example of the Fallacy of The False Dilemma -- if "A" is wrong, then "B" must be right.

ID claims that something which isn't fully understood, is proof of the existence of a Greater Power.

"Truth is great and will prevail if left to herself." -- Jefferson

[JTN]

I'm not going to go through all 500+ comments right now, so forgive me if someone already brought this up.

But our most important creation is our moral character, the habits and attitudes that govern our actions. A good character helps us to be happy, a bad one guarantees us misery. And what guides us in creating such a character? What tells us how we should deal with our fellow humans?

...

If we can demonstrate to them that the basis for ethics lies in our nature as rational, volitional creatures, then perhaps we can also reassure them that men can indeed have morality—yet never fear to use that wondrous capacity which allows us to understand our own origins, the world around us, and the moral nature within us.

The author apparently hasn't worked out a basic contradiction in these statements; first claiming that morality is our "creation", then declaring that it "lies in our nature as rational, volitional creatures."

Of course, if morality "lies in our nature", then man has not created morality; it is simply something he was born with. It would be much like claiming that man created his intelligence, his ability to see and his ten fingers and ten toes.

A common debating tactic by theists is to point out that without a Divine source there is no real basis for obeying our moral impulses. A few atheists, when challenged on this, simply concede the argument and grant that according to their philosophy there is no basis for morality. This is very rare though. It is much more common that they simply do not see the problem.

This is Hudgin's problem. He wants us to believe that the source of morality is ourselves. "We need not fear that with evolution, or without a god, there is no basis for ethics. There is an objective basis for ethics, but it does not reside in the heavens. It arises from our own human nature and its objective requirements."

I'll, disregard the part about evolution (partly because I think his point here regarding some fundamentalists' motivation for rejecting it is probably correct, and mostly because it is not relevant to my point). Hudgins is saying here that there need be no spiritual basis for morality; that the source is "our own human nature" and that this is enough.

The raises the question of what to do with someone with no or very few moral impulses. If there is no morality external to man's nature, then on what grounds do we judge the morality of a man who does not posess this trait? If morality is simply part of man's nature, then what makes one man's nature better than another? We would have to appeal to something outside man to make the call.

This is generally not a problem, since nearly all men acknowledge virtually the same morality, with the deviations among cultures and individuals being in the details. Examples of people with no sense of morality are very rare. But when they appear there is no means of measuring the "rightness" of one man's nature without an appeal to some kind of objective standard outside of man.

I'm not using this argument to prove the existence of God, because I don't think it does, but it is very problematic for those who claim that no source of morality external to man's nature is needed.

[connectthedots]

A brief bio on Hudgins. Not exactly a scientist, so his opinions about science need to be heavily discounted.

Edward L. Hudgins

Executive Director

Edward Hudgins, formerly director of regulatory studies for the Cato Institute and editor of Regulation magazine, is an expert on the regulation of space and transportation, pharmaceuticals, and labor. He served as a senior economist for the Joint Economic Committee of the U.S. Congress and was both deputy director for economic policy studies and director of the Center for International Economic Growth at the Heritage Foundation. He has testified on many occasions before Congress. His opinion writing has been published in the Wall Street Journal, Houston Chronicle, USA Today, Philadelphia Inquirer, Journal of Commerce, and Aviation Week & Space Technology. He is the author of Freedom to Trade: Refuting the New Protectionism and the forthcoming Space: The Free Market Frontier. He has appeared on NBC's "Dateline NBC," National Public Radio, PBS, Fox News Channel, CNN, MSNBC and Voice of America. Hudgins has a bachelor's degree from the University of Maryland, a master's from American University, and a doctorate from Catholic University. He has taught at universities in the United States and in Germany.

[pissant]

That people act in their own self interest, creating a capitalistic trade system does not equate to "evolution". People have the God given gift of intelligence (except democrats). Small communities bartered. When populations grew in many places, bartering became more difficult, so money was invented. The advances in capitalism come from individuals making informed decisions about how best to bring comfort and joy to their lives. Others see the examples of the smart guys and emulate it. Over time, it became a complex world trading and finance system. So capitalism is designed. Designed by trial and error of individuals over the centuries. Without intelligence behind it, intelligence to see what works and what does not, people would still live in caves and only trade with their next cave neighbor.

[Junior]

The Conspiracy That Cares

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January 27, 2006

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CrevoSci Threads for the Past Week

1. 2006-01-27 Morality on the Brain
2. 2006-01-27 Mountain ranges rise dramatically faster than expected (Earth not as old as evolutionists say)
3. 2006-01-27 Screwtape's 'Age of Darwinian Scientism'
4. 2006-01-26 BBC: Most Brits Don't Believe in Evolution
5. 2006-01-26 Fossil Yields Surprise Kin of Crocodiles
6. 2006-01-26 Making Darwin Right
7. 2006-01-26 Pitt Professor's Theory of Evolution Gets Boost From Cell Research [Sudden Origins]
8. 2006-01-26 What Are Creationists Afraid Of?
9. 2006-01-26 Why do you not understand what I say?(Understanding non-Christians)
10. 2006-01-25 Evolution Sunday!
11. 2006-01-25 Is ID science or religion?
12. 2006-01-25 Moon Is Dragging Continents West, Scientist Says
13. 2006-01-25 Movement hopes to bridge the gap between evolution and creationism
14. 2006-01-25 Nothing New under the Sun: Another Failed Attempt to Explain God Away
15. 2006-01-25 Studies examine withholding of scientific data among researchers, trainees
16. 2006-01-25 Time Changes Modern Human's Face
17. 2006-01-24 Fossil of 'Sphinx' discovered in NE China
18. 2006-01-24 Intelligent Design: Regarding Science and Religion
19. 2006-01-24 It May Look Authentic; Here's How to Tell It Isn't
20. 2006-01-24 Senators object to morning prayer on abortion, evolution
21. 2006-01-24 Size Does Matter in Bats' Evolution
22. 2006-01-24 Speaker stands behind theory [Dembski on Intelligent Design in Kansas]
23. 2006-01-24 What Science and Theology Have in Common
24. 2006-01-23 Deny the Designer, Save 'Science'
25. 2006-01-23 Evolution study tightens human-chimp connection
26. 2006-01-23 In Defense of Evolution
27. 2006-01-23 The unholy lust of scientists: It may be time to curtail public financing of scientific research
28. 2006-01-22 Do You Know this Man?
29. 2006-01-22 Does education fuel paranormal beliefs?
30. 2006-01-22 Hopkins to Found First Center for Comprehensive Study of Epigenetics
31. 2006-01-22 It's Dogged as Does It [Darwin in the Galápagos]
32. 2006-01-22 Questions for Daniel C. Dennett: The Nonbeliever
33. 2006-01-22 Small changes separate man from ape
34. 2006-01-22 WHICH CREATION STORY?
35. 2006-01-21 Ancient lakes of the Sahara
36. 2006-01-21 God's Guide to Sex
37. 2006-01-21 Hardwired To Seek Beauty
38. 2006-01-21 In 'Design' vs. Darwinism, Darwin Wins Point in Rome
39. 2006-01-21 Ken Ham Continues Assault on Bible & Christians
40. 2006-01-21 Mutation found that cures heart disease
41. 2006-01-21 'Scientific fact takes a back seat in George Bush's White House' (Massachusetts liberal gag alert)
42. 2006-01-21 The Intelligent Design Revolution
43. 2006-01-21 Theistic Revolution
44. 2006-01-21 Vatican's Evolutionists

On this Date in CrevoSci History

1. 01/27/2005 [Intelligent] Design Paper Published in PNAS
2. 01/27/2005 Scientists Recreate Genome of Ancient Human Ancestor
3. 01/27/2004 Study: That Neanderthal Was Not Your Grandfather
4. 01/27/2004 'Your Forefathers Were Not Neanderthals'
5. 01/27/2003 Cross-Species Birds May Offer Clues
6. 01/27/2002 Key West Is Tiring of Chickens in Road

Deleted, Locked, or Pulled Threads

1. 2005-11-15 'Perception' gene tracked humanity's evolution, scientists say [Locked]
2. 2004-04-27 Stop Teaching Our Kids this Evolution Claptrap! [Pulled]
3. 2003-10-29 The Mystery of the Missing Links (Intelligent Design vs. Evolution) [Pulled]
4. 2003-10-27 Physics Nobelist Takes Stand on Evolution [Pulled]
5. 2003-10-23 Gene Found for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder [Pulled]
6. 2003-10-21 Artificial Proteins Assembled from Scratch [Pulled]
7. 2003-09-23 Solar System Formation Questions [Pulled]
8. 2003-09-17 Agreement of the Willing - Free Republic Science Threads [Pulled]
9. 2003-07-18 Unlikely Group May Revive Darwin Debate [Evolution v. Creationism] [Pulled]
10. 2003-07-02 Unlocking the Mystery of 'Unlocking the Mystery of Life' [Pulled]
11. 2003-06-26 Darwin Faces a New Rival [Pulled]
12. 2003-06-06 Amazing Creatures [Pulled]
13. 2002-09-14 Geological Theory Explains Origin of Ocean, Continents [Pulled]
14. 2002-09-13 Oldest Known Penis Is 100 Million Years Old [Pulled]
15. 2002-04-13 To Creationists: Is There a Global Conspiracy to Promote Evolution? [Pulled]
16. 2002-04-10 (Creationists) CRSC Correction [Pulled]
17. 2002-04-04 Evolution: What is it? (long article) [Locked]
18. 2002-03-22 Evolution is designed for science classes [Pulled]
19. 2002-03-05 Life found 'on margin of existence' [Pulled]
20. 2001-11-10 Alabama to continue biology textbook warning sticker [Pulled]
21. 2001-11-06 Warming makes mosquito evolve, University of Oregon scientists find [Pulled]
22. 2001-09-18 CHEERED BY BIGOTS, SCIENTIFIC INDIA TAKES 'GIANT LEAP BACKWARDS' [Pulled]
23. 2001-08-29 How Not to Defend Evolution [Deleted]
24. 2001-08-28 The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [6th Revision] [Deleted]
25. 2001-08-27 Top Ten Problems with the Big Bang [Deleted]
26. 2001-08-26 A Scientific Account of the Origin of Life on Earth [Thread I] [Deleted]
27. 2001-08-24 Satellites Search for Noah’s Ark [Deleted]
28. 2001-07-19 The Effect of Darwinism on Morality and Christianity [Deleted]
29. 2001-07-19 The Scientific Case Against Evolution: A Summary Part I [Deleted]
30. 2001-07-19 The Scientific Case Against Evolution: A Summary Part II [Deleted]
31. 2001-07-19 Evolution is Religion — Not Science [Deleted]
32. 2001-07-07 Evolution Fraud in Current Biology Textbooks [Deleted]
33. 2001-03-31 Enlisting Science to Find the Fingerprints of a Creator [No Such File]
34. 2001-01-13 A Christian Understanding of Intelligent Design [Deleted]
35. 2000-11-15 Evolutionism Receives Another Hard Blow [Deleted]
36. 2000-10-10 Another Lost Generation? [Deleted]
37. 2000-10-02 God and the Academy [Deleted]
38. 2000-09-18 The World of Design [Deleted]
39. 2000-08-30 Evil-Ution [Deleted]
40. 1999-11-14 Creationism's Success Past 5 Years: (Gallup: 1 in 10 hold secular evolutionist perspective) [No Such File]

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[Texas Eagle]

If we can demonstrate to them that the basis for ethics lies in our nature as rational, volitional creatures, then perhaps we can also reassure them that men can indeed have morality—yet never fear to use that wondrous capacity which allows us to understand our own origins, the world around us, and the moral nature within us.

That's a big "if".

[Retain Mike]

Wow! You made an outstanding post. Talk about throwing a rock in a herd of turkeys. I have never before seen 700 plus comments.

[Elsie]

Hudgins brings out into the open the fears that are driving creationists & the ID movement.

I'm a C type, and these are not MY fears.

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Man is Man's highest achievement, is what I hear in this article.

[Giant Conservative]

Interesting article. One point it makes is that complex ordered systems can arise from the bottom up, from the interactions of people on the ground as it were. However, the principle that guides their interaction, such as embrace of free market enterprise, is still top-down vis-a-vis being an overarcing guiding principle which is "divine" in the sense of being system-permeating.

[reasonisfaith]

This article has zero substance. I can summarize it in two sentences: “Morals don’t have to come from God, and in fact they don’t. They come from man.” It doesn’t tell us anything.

Hudgins presumes to answer the most difficult problem in all of moral philosophy but fails to include a description of his answer. He rambles a bit about “rational capacity” and such, but gives not a speck of substance describing any basis for absolute morality independent of divine command.

[x]

The rise of evolutionary theory was accompanied with a vogue for eugenics, "the improvement of the race," "selective breeding," and "the elimination of the unfit." The consequences were disastrous. You can argue that not all the eugenicists were Darwinists, but there's no denying that the atmosphere of early Darwinism encouraged a decline in respect for human life. That's what the creationists and supporters of intelligent design are worried about. I haven't made up my mind about the question, but right now I trust the scientific chauvinists less than the religious ones.

[Heartlander]

On the Origins of the Mind by David Berlinski, a secular Jew and ID advocate.

[RaceBannon]

Third, complexity does not imply “design.” One of Adam Smith’s most powerful insights, developed further by Friedrich Hayek, is that incredible complexity can emerge in society without a designer or planner, through “spontaneous order.” Hayek showed how in a free market the complex processes of producing and distributing goods and services to millions of individuals do not require socialist planners. Rather, individuals pursuing their own self-interest in a system governed by a few basic rules—property rights, voluntary exchange by contract—have produced all the vast riches of the Western world.

Bad analogy.

In economics, intelligent people are influencing the money trails and situations in organized manners, not just letting the money sit in a bank until some outside force makes more money or less money or different money.

. What a horrible analogy, not even related.

[Oztrich Boy]

Creationists are afraid of Alexander the coppesramith placemarker.

[wolfcreek]

I've read though many of these threads dealing with this subject. I don't believe any of these theories should be taught until the college level. I know how perplexed my mind becomes trying to reason through this subject and I think it's a bit too much for immature mind to handle. (especially in this forum)

[Sabo]

[i]Hayek showed how in a free market the complex processes of producing and distributing goods and services to millions of individuals do not require socialist planners. Rather, individuals pursuing their own self-interest in a system governed by a few basic rules—property rights, voluntary exchange by contract—have produced all the vast riches of the Western world.[/i]

This did not occur without design and planning. This infrastructure occured due to smaller scale planning and desgin of private organization and individuals. The basic laws of commerce also acted as "designers" for this system.

[grey_whiskers]

Sh*t. How'd I miss this thread?

Too many posts to scroll through. Gotta let it go.

I would've loved to throw in some puns if any had been suitable.

Cheers!

[grey_whiskers]

Sorry, quitting at post 171. I tried. :-)

Gotta go read real work and do my sit ups!

[Bellflower]

peoples brains are set up to respond to and create order. they were designed by a designer who planned it that way. it's in the hard drive, made in His image.