Evolution in the bible, says Vatican

News.com ^ | 11/7/05 | Mikey_1962

[Mikey_1962]

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly. His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".

His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.

[Sols]

Are you sure you were a Christian? I don't think so.

Is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy still popular around these parts?

[jwalsh07]

Since you characterize yourself as a godless atheist, evidently you have answered the big question.

Could you share with us how the Universe came into being?

[Palisades]

So then, each man answers to himself. What you are saying is that right and wrong are relative to the man himself?

Our concepts of right and wrong arose out of hard-learned and painful historic lessons. There are certain ethical and moral rules that are necessary for the proper and orderly functioning of any society, from a hunter-gatherer clan to a post-industrial constitutional republic of 300 million.

Historically, we have often cloaked such rules in religious cloth to give them even more legitimacy.

[Liberal Classic]

Aye, laddie!

[Sensei Ern]

And thus, papal infallibility goes out the window once again.

[zeeba neighba]

I don't know. If MM were a true Christian, he would be one yet, as the Lord has promised to never lose any that the Father has given him. I suspect MM grew up in a christian home, and therefore thought he was one, when he was not.

[jwalsh07]

It's been posited that Day 1 begins on a cloud shaded earth, from which light and darkness could be seen, but the view of heavenly bodies had to wait.

No heavenly body to rotate around, no way to measure time from our perspective. Tough to get around that one.

[Seizure]

"Evolution is in compliance with what the Bible states (not the other way around. Who among us can state what a day is to God. Are you that presumptuous?"

"Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:1

"God created the heavens and the earth...

God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the FIRST DAY.

And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the SECOND DAY.

And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the THIRD DAY.

Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens... So the evening and the morning were the FOURTH DAY.

Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let the birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."... So the evening and the morning were the FIFTH DAY.

Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind...And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind...

Then God said, "So let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let him have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created them; male and female...So the evening and the morning were the SIXTH DAY.

And on the SEVENTH DAY God ended His work which He had done..."

Note: On each day God created life "according to its own kind." Meaning that each living plant, tree, fish, bird, creeping thing, beast, cattle, and man was created in its mature form. Life did not transform from one thing to another.

"...in eternal hope with eternal life which God, who cannot lie..." Titus 1:2

So, Soltice, to God a day is a day, not a period of years. The lie of evolution is not contained within the Bible and the Bible does not support it.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

[The Red Zone]

You're a sinner, and you're going to keep being one. But that's OK, as long as you're sorry about it and believe that Jesus will still get you to paradise.

It's pretty much perfect for humans. That's why it succeeds.

Close but not quite the cigar. It's something that existentially (I hate that word but difficult to find something else to describe the fundamental concept of being as viewed from man's eyes) transcends being "sorry." Nobody could possibly be "sorry" enough. So the Lord was "sorry" on our behalf into a whole 'nother dimension. Belief is an atomic act of giving the whole load to the Lord, and as one consequence the Lord's own characteristics will begin to show through one's life. There is unsaved past and saved future, in the timeline extending from that point.

[scottdeus12]

"Our concepts of right and wrong arose out of hard-learned and painful historic lessons. There are certain ethical and moral rules that are necessary for the proper and orderly functioning of any society..."

So someone steals one of your posessions. Is this right or wrong?

Someone murders an innocent 2 year old child. Is this right or wrong?

[The Red Zone]

There is no specific time given for the "bara" (ex nihilo) creation of the sun relative to the initial "creation of heaven and earth." The sun was later set as a sign in the heavens. The unveiling of the sun would suffice for that in an earth centric story.

[annalex]

Soleness of Adam and Eve is nevertheless the Church's teaching. Ours is a religion based on a miracle, so the lack of scientific explanation for one thing or another need not bother us.

The literal reading of Genesis is by no means the only possible reading, and not the one I would advocate, but it is compatible with the dogma. Mutiplicity of genetic parents is not compatible.

[BuglerTex]

There is a book, The Crack in the Cosmic Egg, by Joseph Chilton Pierce, on philosophy and consciousness, that calls up the classical Greek concept of metanoia, or a super-eureka, a redefining moment of discovery or epiphany, a chain reaction of paradigm shifts. I was taking a course on creative thinking at the time, over thirty years ago, it seemed pretty new age.

Fifteen years ago I learned the difference between metanoia and metamelomae (greek)(sp?). Metanoia means a change of heart that results in a change of life. Metamelomae means a recognition of wrong and a turning away. The overwhelming use in the New Testament of the greek word translated into english as repentance is metanoia, and only in a few instances is it the negative metamelomae. I was blown away.

That gives a new picture of the cosmic egg. Thanks, I did not remember about Lemaitre.

[Palisades]

So someone steals one of your posessions. Is this right or wrong?

Sure, its wrong. History has shown that property rights are necessary for the proper functioning of a society.

Someone murders an innocent 2 year old child. Is this right or wrong?

It's wrong. Again, allowing murders without consequence is not a good thing for a society.

[Dave S]

"Predestination arguments can drive a person stark raving mad crazy. "

Looking at life from God's perspective, outside of time and space, predestination is not a problem and Man can still have free will. Just believe that from God's perspective everything that will ever be or has been already is.

[Havoc]

Who among us? Well Jewish Rabbinical scholarship for one.. And they state unabashedly that their language holds a 24 hour day as the case. It's their language and the scriptures were written in their language. All this nonsense about days meaning eons came about relatively recently. The language has never supported the nonsense. And as a result, people have been looking for anyway possible to deconstruct and loosen up the terms of the language to allow for a great deal that isn't therein supported.

"A day is like a thousand years" has been misconstrued to say "A day is hundreds of millions of years". So, as with president Clinton, we're down to the meaning of "is" or rather of "like". The words are not synonymous. But to deconstruct meaning, these guys act as though they were. Time flies when you're having fun. So day's last only minutes when you're having a blast, right... This is the same concept in different words. How something seems vs. how something actually is.. two vastly different things.

If folks wish for some real eye openers RE Genesis, I highly recommend Chuck Missler's study of Genesis. It is available online with and without charts. And If I'm not much mistaken, it will likely show up in alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.christian in the coming weeks as much of his material is showing up there even now.

As for what Rome thinks, let them wish for company. Having called God a liar by compromising His word, they miserably want to avoid being alone down the road. They stood alone in condemnation of Galileo and should stand alone now. They've no credibility on the matter any more than they have on what makes one a Christian. They may well know what makes one a "Roman Catholic"; but, then that is because they've spent great energies in designing that religion through philosophy - it stands apart. Rome speaks neither for God nor for Christianity. It speaks for itself. And while the world likes what it hears...

[zeeba neighba]

The Hindu Vedas consider creation to be a cosmic egg. But the piece de resistance, is what kind of egg is it?

[Havoc]

Rome has a very cleverly anti-Christian angle. Your point?

[Whitewasher]

I find this website to be very insightful:

http://www.creationevidence.org

[scottdeus12]

Sure, its wrong. History has shown that property rights are necessary for the proper functioning of a society.

It's wrong. Again, allowing murders without consequence is not a good thing for a society

So then you are saying that there is a Moral Law, that these Laws are not relative to the individual?