Posted on 08/02/2005 4:16:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
I am going to explain this simply since I am not a theologian, so if any are lurking, please jump in and correct me, if I err.
In essence, the Old Testament law which enumerates many forms of punishment (including the one in Exodus which you cite) which we find offensive, allows us to see what the consequences of our sin should be. Sin is repulsive to God, and the punishment for sin is death.......ALL sin.
But through Jesus Christ, the punishment for our sin has been paid, and the way of redemption of those sins is revealed, through forgiveness in Jesus Christ. In that sense, we no longer follow the law as it is given in the Pentateuch, but we are now under grace.......the grace of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our sin.
Evil things done in the name of Christianity......such as those you have enumerated, and many, many more........are not the actions of those who are doing so because they follow Jesus, but are done because of their sin.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." (Romans 6:23).
We can discuss this all day, but unless you believe that we are sinners in need of redemption, you will not agree with what I have said (which is why it was relevant for me to know that). And unless you believe that the Bible is God's Word, you will not believe what it says either. (And millions of people who are not 'fundamentalists' know that God's word is true. I'm not a fundamentalist, but I believe the Bible to be inerrant).
For me, this conversation is over. You may have the last word, including your usual name-calling if you wish, as I'm sure you will, but I pray that you will accept God's forgiveness and His love for You at some point in time.
Peace, Don.
Your memory fails you. I didn't say this.
I do not recall blanket opposition from jesus against the teachings of the old testement. Do you think Jesus is opposed to the 10 commandments?
Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to oppose it. He actually made the 10 commandments tougher. I'm sure you know that he said that lust is sin, not just adultery, and anger against another will be subject to judgement.
The critical point is that Jesus' death provided the atonement for our sins, so that we can be forgiven through Him. We no longer sacrifice animals for our repentence, and we no longer kill witches or adulteresses. Jesus paid it all...........if we believe and trust in Him.
Your assertion that the Nazis distorted Darwin's theory is preposterous. Darwin advocated eugenics, although he was more discreet about it than his disciples, Haeckel and Galton, who had no qualms about publicly advocating eugenics.
You must be so proud.
In a 350 year effort to drive the Mohammedans out of Spain, about ten people were killed each year after having been convicted of crimes by the Inquisition.
Do you find this comparable to the holocaust?
thread's still going strong I see
The curse of the undead thread!
Said "clarity" escaped my notice. Did you explain how Torquemada's behavior was inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible? He did not suffer witches to live, as per the bible, and he felt he was following the Golden Rule, as per the bible, as he would have certainly wanted his soul saved by any means possible were he possessed of the devil. If you answered this question, I missed it.
You did you offer any clear answer, that I detected, as to why you can't trace a very clear line of authority from the witch verse to the "hammer of witches" to the easter pulpit sermons, to the semi-annual easter pogroms, so fashionable in europe for so long.
As long as we're on the subject, how do you NOT trace the second-class citizenship of the jews, established by Papal Bull, or the institutionalized kidnapping of Jewish children to be brought up catholic, or the blood-guilt accusations directly to Matthew 27:25, and the doctrine of salvation, which holds that the one unforgivable source of damnation is to know OF christ, but not to accept him as savior--something an orthodox jew cannot possibly do, and stay true to his daily oath of Shema? This is not some passing fancy by some corrupt dark ages tyrant of a Pope. This is central doctrine, and it only takes a very brief survey of the available church documents to see it persistently and directly applied to jews in the very manner I have just presented it, for more than a millenium.
The church and it's spokespersons cannot effectively dischange this concern by trying to deny that this occured; the Catholic church has at least begun (barely) to think about this with some sense of effective remorse--it's way past time the rest of the christian world grew up, shouldered some decent adult sense of responsiblity, and followed suit, instead of whining and/or blustering.
And, therefore, it follows that harrowing out and burning witches is not "opposed to the will of Jesus" as you suggested earlier?
The critical point is that Jesus' death provided the atonement for our sins, so that we can be forgiven through Him. We no longer sacrifice animals for our repentence, and we no longer kill witches or adulteresses. Jesus paid it all...........if we believe and trust in Him.
....and so jesus IS opposed to killing witches? The principle of salvation through christ means it is ok to ignore God's word in the old testement? Have we burned up all the witches now? If you have a thesis, that somehow relates to the question what "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" means we should do, I wish you would state it.
And how many were imprisoned for years, while being stretched at the rack, or crushed, branded, burned suspended,...."Gee mom, I only murdered 10 people a year--what the big deal!"
Do you find this comparable to the holocaust?
Oh, let me see. Throw in the mass murders of the Anabaptists, the witches of europe, the everlasting progroms of the jewish ghettos, the genocides of the Knight's Templar, the anabaptists, the albigensians,.... Yea, I expect the relative percentages work out about the same.
You must be so awfully proud of yourself for defending these actions.
Which, however, does not detract for the fact that it is an obviously true statement.
Did you not just finish telling me that Jesus did not repudiate the rules God laid down in the old testement? --which would seem to include "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"? What am I missing?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." (Romans 6:23).
...and a sin would be, for example, failing to obey one of the commandments? And if so, how is that different from failing to obey "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live?"
We can discuss this all day, but unless you believe that we are sinners in need of redemption, you will not agree with what I have said
Once again, your assumptions about my feelings and beliefs are not relevant to whether you have an argument or can answer the question concerning Exodus 22:18.
(which is why it was relevant for me to know that). And unless you believe that the Bible is God's Word, you will not believe what it says either.
Once again, either you have an argument or the don't. According to you, Jesus supports God's rules in the old testement. One of those rules is "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". According to you, then, you are sinning, or we are sinning, when we fail to execute the attendees at our local wickkan gatherings--just as would have been the case for Torquemada's cohorts, but for the ameliorating circumstance that they did, in fact, murder witches in accordance with God's will as expressed in the bible, and unlike you in this regard, are therefore sinless.
(And millions of people who are not 'fundamentalists' know that God's word is true. I'm not a fundamentalist, but I believe the Bible to be inerrant).
Outstanding, as do I. Indeed you are not arguing like a fundamentalist--you are arguing like someone who wishes to have no opinion concrete enough to mean anything. At any rate, since you are an "inerrant" believer, then you can answer the question: what does "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." mean that we should do?
For me, this conversation is over.
When have we heard this before?
You may have the last word, including your usual name-calling if you wish, as I'm sure you will, but I pray that you will accept God's forgiveness and His love for You at some point in time.
Who uttered the words "stupid" and "coward" in this discussion? Why don't you do yourself a favor and tote up our relative indiscretions in this regard, actually writing them down in a list so you can operate with a tad more analytical precision than you have been employing up until now, and see on which side the scale tilts.
But through Jesus Christ, the punishment for our sin has been paid, and the way of redemption of those sins is revealed, through forgiveness in Jesus Christ. In that sense, we no longer follow the law as it is given in the Pentateuch, but we are now under grace.......the grace of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our sin.
I am quite accustomed to hearing this irrelevant pink bunny fluff in place of concrete answers to concrete questions. Does any of this mean disobeying the 10 commandments does not constitute a sin? Of course not. And how does that differ from disobeying God's command to kill witches? Do you honestly think God is especially pleased by the fact that many of his new age disciples would rather thrust pins through their eyelids than give a straight answer to the question: what is a sin? If you can go to hell for it, don't you think it's kind of important to be able to know what it is?
This is an absolute lie. I never said that. Perhaps you meant to post to another person. Either you post the alleged quote of mine or admit your error.
I said it. Will it be satisfactory if I admit to his error? I don't want to distract him from his fairly fascinating attempts to defend the Spanish Iquisition.
I'm still trying to find out if anyone believes witches really exist, aside from a few deluded Wiccans.
True, at 3 to 6 thousand cruelly murdered, it represents only a tiny fraction of the genocidal record of the catholic church.
Good and happy day!:)
The Letter of the Law is Practice Best when the Love of God is Present!
1600
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