Posted on 08/02/2005 4:16:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
Ask a specific question, and I will give a specific answer--this is meaninglessly vague.
And, do you believe in the reality of Satan, and that he is evil?
I am rather inclined to think this is intrusive and uncalled for. Either you have an argument and can trot it out and defend it, or you don't. What I believe or don't believe has no relevance, unless you are deeply dedicated to ad hominem arguments. (or simply need an excuse to terminate an argument whose conclusions you wish do duck.)
Depending on your answers to those questions, we may have no foundation on which to continue this discussion.
If you want to quit, you don't need to invent an excuse. How is it that you can sluff God's own word concerning witches, but think this conversation should hinge on my acceptance of another set of biblical verses? Let's stick to Matthew 27:25 until you can explain clearly why you accept it, or not, and then we can move on to another verse and I will reciprocate.
Interesting revelation as to how you view rational discussion with others on a conservative political forum.
And revealing into why you use cannon fire and heavy artillery to try to destroy those 'enemies' who dare disagree with you......
You're a good soldier in the army of evolution, don. Only this 'enemy troop' isn't dying here, no matter how much you fire at me.
there are people who believe they are Napoleon, but they aren't. The question is, do YOU believe they are Napoleon?
Try again. Answer the questions.
Do you believe that human beings sin? Do you believe that all of us SIN and fall short of God's glory? Do you believe any verse in the Bible (pick one) that talks about sin, or do you dismiss them all?
And the question about Satan that you unskillfully evaded is VERY relevant to this discussion. If you don't believe in the power of Evil, and Satan as the enemy of God, and that he has influence in this world (again, pick any verse in the Bible and tell me if you believe it), then there is no basis on which this discussion can continue.
Either you believe in sin and Satan or you don't. And if you don't, there is no common ground on which we can discuss human behavior and history. Just try to be honest.
As for Matthew 27:25, it is a quote of what the Jews said to Pilate at the release of Barabbas. It is a historic statement, not the words of Jesus, or even Matthew.
Now answer my questions directly, or you will prove your own cowardice and inability to have an honest discussion.(which you have flippantly and wrongly accused me of, multiple times).
"Bush supports 'intelligent design"
Yes, but can he spell it?
Here again, as with don.........there is no basis for conversation if you don't believe in evil.
Everything I say presupposes a shared belief in at least the basic concepts of Scripture......such as.......God is good, Satan is evil. If you don't believe in Satan, then it makes sense that you wouldn't believe in witchcraft or Satan worship.
This is a fairly transparent attempt to move the conversation onto largely irrelevant grounds, which you are more familiar with--sort of like the old joke about the guy looking for the keys he lost in the street, rather than in the park where he lost them, because the light is better in the street. However, I didn't get the memo putting you in charge of this conversation. If you want to drop out, drop out--and without putting it on me, kindly, for not jumping through whatever hoops you arbitrarily raise for me to jump through--I'm not your socratic hand puppet, and I have no particular desire to discuss Satan. If I haven't made myself clear--I think this is an egregeous attempt at distraction from what I regard as in interesting and germane question.
I believe in satan in much the same way I believe in God--which is to say: abstractly--not as if every verse of the bible was the literal, concrete, tangible unambiguous truth--like most sane people, and unlike fundamentalist creationist literalists.
The boot calls the kettle black.
This is dishonest, annoying, distracting blather. Neither of us needs to know anything about satan to figure out what "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" means.
As for Matthew 27:25, it is a quote of what the Jews said to Pilate at the release of Barabbas. It is a historic statement, not the words of Jesus, or even Matthew.
The same can be said for the the creation story. Are you now dismissing that as well?
Now answer my questions directly, or you will prove your own cowardice and inability to have an honest discussion.(which you have flippantly and wrongly accused me of, multiple times).
Not flippant nor wrong, as this current wave of irrelevant, distracting balderdash shows. What does "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" mean? This isn't rocket science.
Excellent. So what does "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" mean, since you seem to want to contend that it doesn't mean what it clearly says? I think my 6 year old niece can answer this question, and without verbally abusing me, or trying to drive me away from the question with a lot of irrelevant chatter, and not-so-veiled threats to run away if I keep asking the question until I get an answer.
I see..........maybe that explains why I couldn't find anything remotely similar to that in my concordance.
And you couldn't answer the question about Satan without firing another shot, could you?
The conclusion I can clearly draw from your elucidation of yourself, is that you don't share the view that Satan is real, so therefore, there is no basis on which we can continue a discussion of human evil behavior.
Thanks. Carry on in your efforts to kill the enemy.
(Interesting that you call me an enemy and make fun of me in every post (which is actually quite amusing to me), and then cry abuse. How old are you, anyway?)
Deluded people reciting spells and incantations is not witchcraft, any more than the inmates in asylums are directing European wars.
Do you actually believe that spells and incantations work?
Cannon fire--do you mean, for example, the actual facts of history? As opposed to the vaguely couched whitewash you were offering?
Where is it in the Bible (how hard a question is that?)
I certainly hope you're not stupid enough to think I'd trust you about what's in the Bible when you don't even believe it, do you? Good grief!
What book......what chapter......what verse?
I have been reading this conversation with some amount of fascination - but the only one I see being evasive here is you. Furthermore, you seem obsessed about whether a conversation should continue or not, or whether there are any grounds for you to stay engaged in the argument. When someone wants to leave, they should just leave, imho. Don't make some big drama out of it.
I don't believe the essense of Christianity is evil or that it endorses misdeeds and torture, etc. (if taught and understood correctly, that is)... But Don pretty clearly made his case that for 1400 years, the subjugation and opression of people in the *name* of Christianity was more of an institutionalized pattern - and not just aberrent cases of corruption that have subsequently been blown out of proportion in a conspiracy perpetrated solely by our public school system.
Now answer my questions directly, or you will prove your own cowardice and inability to have an honest discussion.
You didn't even dare to touch the historical examples he put forward in posts 1549 and 1551, you're calling him a coward? Nice try.
Where did you request it? I thought I was reading every post--show me where you asked.
I see..........maybe that explains why I couldn't find anything remotely similar to that in my concordance.
Maybe you can explain it because your "concordance" chooses to omit the more embarassing moments in the bible. Why don't you use a real index?
Exodus 22:18--which took me all of 10 seconds to find using google.
And you couldn't answer the question about Satan without firing another shot, could you?
As opposed to, say, calling me a "coward" without bothering yet again to explain what "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" means, for example?
The conclusion I can clearly draw from your elucidation of yourself, is that you don't share the view that Satan is real, so therefore, there is no basis on which we can continue a discussion of human evil behavior.
If you want to vanish, do so--do not put it on me, and do not attempt to tell me what I think--especially when it contradicts what I said.
Thanks. Carry on in your efforts to kill the enemy.
Thanks, I'm sure the next time civilization takes a turn for the worse, and preachers start preaching Matthew 27:25 against the jews, and christians once again routinly stream out of easter services to murder jews wholesale, the jews will be especially grateful to self-righteous, smug christians like yourself for for using outrageously nebulous cross-verse obfuscation to defend biblical verse, no matter what it says, and no matter how much sustained grievous harm it has caused.
Old enough to know better than to call people cowards to their face, rather than answer a fairly simple question arising directly from the discussion at hand.
I have been trying to find out if don believes that man is sinful, which is directly related to the discussion of why people who call themselves Christians do things that oppose the teaching of Jesus Christ.
I hope that clarifies my position to you. I was not evading anything.
But thanks for caring.
It is, of course, not in the least bit related to the discussion--try taking me out of the picture and pretending your minister is asking the question. Does that change the answer to the question? Of course not. Either you can defend your contentions or you can't--even if I'm green slime from Jupiter.
of why people who call themselves Christians do things that oppose the teaching of Jesus Christ.
This was not the discussion. The discussion was about statements in the Old Testement, from whence comes the story of creation which, I seem to remember you telling me, was the unquestionable word of God when comes to teaching creationism in science class. I do not recall blanket opposition from jesus against the teachings of the old testement. Do you think Jesus is opposed to the 10 commandments?
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