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To: upchuck
Just a few points.

The top 1% of the people (in terms of wealth) are steadily increasing their per centage of the US's wealth the bottom 95% are losing wealth.

The real wages of a typical "working man" have been steadily declining since 1973.

Under NAFTA, if Acme Widgets makes two half widgets and ships them to Mexico to its maquiladora; they sign a purchase order and it becomes an export to Mexico. Then it is shipped back here as a complete widget. So our balance of trade with Mexico is even worse than the official figures.

From the recession of 2001, if we did not count government jobs there would be a net job loss as of a few months ago. People have looked at the breakdown of private sector jobs created; they are primarily waiters, hotel workers, hospital orderlies, retail sales -- you know the real high tech jobs. There is either a small or negative job growth for whites and blacks; hispanic job growth is good.

The unemployment figures are cooked, boiled and roasted by the administration. One of the things that points to the invalidity of these figures is the discrepancy between the "unemployment count" and the household survey. It would be difficult to prove, but part of the discrepancy is probably due to the large number of illegal aliens. Illegal aliens don't exist for one count but do in the survey. Similarly there are large numbers of people who are unemployed but are not counted as unemployed.

There is evidence that people are moving down in wages. The guy that used to be an engineer and is now driving a federal express truck is making less money. But he is employed.

You have to remember, free trade, is part of a religion for some people just slap that title on a piece of crap and they will worship a piece of crap. Anybody that doesn't do well is a "loser". Get with it, scorch and burn the US for cheaper twinkies.
215 posted on 07/27/2005 11:52:33 PM PDT by RATkiller (I'm not communist, socialist, Democrat nor Republican so don't call me names)
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To: RATkiller
The real wages of a typical "working man" have been steadily declining since 1973

My father drummed into our heads in the 50's that we had to go to college because getting decent paying jobs of the future would depend on higher education.

The real reason for decline in the wages of the typical working person may be that many of them no longer have fathers to teach the realities of the world.

The percentage of kids born out of wedlock has grown astronomically.

I don't think any of the reasons for that were due to Republicans.

220 posted on 07/27/2005 11:58:50 PM PDT by patriciaruth (They are all Mike Spanns)
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To: RATkiller
If "real wages" are as bad as you claim, then why is home ownership at an all time high? Furthermore, why are tax revenues so high that it shrunk deficit projection by ~90B last quarter?

As for the unemployment figures being cooked, that is nonsense. The reality is that we are moving toward a golden age of small businesses and entrepreneurship. It requires a slightly different way of collecting and interpreting employment data to capture this paradigm shift -- the household survey. Which is a great thing in my book.
224 posted on 07/28/2005 12:05:28 AM PDT by FranklinsTower
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To: RATkiller
What about the other 4%?

If the top 1% is gaining all the wealth, whilst the "bottom" 95% is losing all it has, that's 96%.

You haven't the glimmer of an idea what you're talking about and your math skills stink!

More and more people are amassing more and more wealth and going up the ladder, than are "losing" what they have. Your entire post is utter codswallop, interlaced with Marxist drivel.

225 posted on 07/28/2005 12:06:57 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: RATkiller
The guy that used to be an engineer and is now driving a federal express truck is making less money. But he is employed.

I have a clue for you.

The older worker has ALWAYS been at a disadvantage in the job market.

The engineer is replaced not by a NAFTA citizen in another country, but by a younger worker with a recent degree in the recent advances in the field.

And his state of the art education in engineering outweighs the experience of the older worker because he hasn't accrued all the pay raises and benefits (especially pension plan benefits) yet of the older worker and is more flexible in job description and location.

My dad lost his engineering job for these reasons long before NAFTA.

227 posted on 07/28/2005 12:08:23 AM PDT by patriciaruth (They are all Mike Spanns)
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To: RATkiller

I work in retail, I make 65,000 a year. I realize that that is not a large amount of money for many republicans, but it pays my bills. I never gratuated high school, but yet I've never had a problem getting a job. I realize you have alot of figures, but I can't really see how you're point relates to me. should I be ashamed of my retail job? would I have a really high paying tech job if there were no nafta?

I work with a company that out-sources call center jobs to india, are those you're examples of high paying jobs?
I was living in silicon valley when the dotcoms crashed. did all those really smart scientists, and computer techs lose their jobs to mexicans? I don't know, and I don't care, all I know is that my rent dropped in half, thats good enough for me.

excuse my grammer btw, Im just an ignorant white retail worker.


252 posted on 07/28/2005 12:30:52 AM PDT by justin-garrett
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To: RATkiller
The real wages of a typical "working man" have been steadily declining since 1973.

What's your source? According to this, the decline turned around in the 1990's.

http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Stats_earns.html

As you can see I found a leftist source, so it can't be said that it's rich guy propaganda.

256 posted on 07/28/2005 12:32:48 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Dean won't call UBL guilty without a trial, but thinks DeLay and Rove should be in jail)
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To: RATkiller

and btw I'm 5 deep into a sixer of karl strauss's "endless summer gold", which I highly recommend. brewed in good old san diego.


259 posted on 07/28/2005 12:34:54 AM PDT by justin-garrett
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To: RATkiller
And if we continue to manufacture widgets at 5 dollars a crack, and the general population won't buy them unless they are 3 dollars, what, are you going to force price controls on the widget manufacture? Will you let the widget manufacture move to a more profitable location? I'll tell you, I worked in the auto industry for years. Every year, every new model design, we had to cut our costs, while the price of cars kept increasing and increasing. It got to the point, our company could not manufacture parts based upon Detroit's demands. Guess what? We built a factory in Mexico, near Mexico City. We were able to meet Detroit's demands, cutting our costs, giving them a savings, all the while they increased the price of cars to consumers. We were just one part of the auto industry. It happens to every 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier supplier. It's the way it is, thanks to unions. And, since the industrial age has matured to the information age, we learn to adapt. We don't manufacture bronze swords or chain mail suits or buggy whips today, we adapt.
262 posted on 07/28/2005 12:42:36 AM PDT by Indy Pendance
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To: RATkiller

"There is evidence that people are moving down in wages. The guy that used to be an engineer and is now driving a federal express truck is making less money. But he is employed."

Do you have statistics for that, or is it your WAG? I'm an engineer. I know many engineers, none of which are driving a fed ex truck, and all employeed in their field or a job that interests them. And if they are for some reason unemployeed, they are able to obtain a similar job. There are plenty of jobs out there for them. A rookie out of college shouldn't expect a 80 or 100k year job. It takes time to acheive that level of success. As with all professions, you have to earn your pay over time. Some employeer is not going to say, oh, goody, you're finally here to save the day. I'll give you an 80k salary, 4 weeks vacation and all 401k bennies starting yesterday. Unless you want us to become Europe and not have to earn our success, but, Americans work for their success and are proud of their achievements.


269 posted on 07/28/2005 1:00:36 AM PDT by Indy Pendance
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To: RATkiller

Must be much truth in your post judging by how many got their shorts in a twist by it.


415 posted on 07/28/2005 8:28:14 AM PDT by moehoward
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