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Supreme Court: people convicted of crime overseas can still own gun
SIGN ON Sandiego ^ | 4/26

Posted on 04/26/2005 7:53:22 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that people convicted of a crime overseas may own a gun in the United States.

In a 5-3 decision, the court ruled in favor of Gary Sherwood Small of Pennsylvania. The court reasoned that U.S. law, which prohibits felons who have been convicted in "any court" from owning guns, applies only to domestic crimes.

Justice Stephen G. Breyer, writing for the majority, said interpreting the law broadly to apply to foreign convictions would be unfair to defendants because procedural protections are often less in international courts. If Congress intended foreign convictions to apply, they can rewrite the law to specifically say so, he said.

"We have no reason to believe that Congress considered the added enforcement advantages flowing from inclusion of foreign crimes, weighing them against, say, the potential unfairness of preventing those with inapt foreign convictions from possessing guns," Breyer wrote.

He was joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, Sandra Day O'Connor, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. In a dissent, Justice Clarence Thomas argued that Congress intended for foreign convictions to apply. "Any" court literally means any court, he wrote.

"Read naturally, the word 'any' has an expansive meaning, that is, 'one or some indiscriminately of whatever kind,"' Thomas said. He was joined by Justices Antonin Scalia and Anthony Kennedy.

Small had answered "no" to the felony conviction question on a federal form when he bought a handgun in 1998, a few days after he was paroled from a Japanese prison for violating weapons laws in that country. Small was indicted in 2000 for lying on the form and for illegally owning two pistols and 335 rounds of ammunition. He later entered a conditional guilty plea pending the outcome of this case.

The Bush administration had asked the court to apply the statute to foreign convictions. Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist did not participate in deciding the case, which was heard in November when he was undergoing treatment for thyroid cancer.

The case is Small v. United States, 03-750. ------


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KEYWORDS: banglist; guns
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To: Dead Corpse

That's not the point. You claimed that US shores wiped all things clean. They do not and SCOTUS can rule on international issues.


161 posted on 04/26/2005 11:57:08 AM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AD fan club: "lol, Good one AD."--gopwinsin04; "Hey, AmishDude, you are right!"-FairOpinion)
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To: KeyesPlease
The statute may or may not be poorly worded, but that does not give the Supremes carte blanche to depart from the plain meaning of words. "Any" means any. The statute does not say "...any federal or state court...", it says "any court".

I just convicted you of felony misinterpretation of law in my court here at FreedomCall manor in my duly established court. Can you now not own guns? You said: "'Any' means 'any'" right?

Which foreign courts are valid and which are not? For crimes committed in the West Bank, are Palestinian courts valid or Israeli? How about Sharia courts in moslem countries? How about Cyprus? Which courts are valid - the Greek ones or the Turkish ones? Are the Zapatista courts in Chiapas valid? How about the tribal courts in Waziristan? Which court system is the valid one in Kashmir -- Chinese, Pakistani, or Indian?

Or do you mean only "any court" in predominately white countries?

162 posted on 04/26/2005 11:57:54 AM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: AmishDude
"Those specific words are actually written in the code. Why are they not repeated in section 922?"

We can't ask why, remember?! We just have to apply the law as written. We can't presume that a simple human *error* has transpired in writing law. Instead, per you, you are barred from owning a gun because the Alabama Militia Court has convicted you of a felony for fraternizing with the enemy on-line.

And "any court" means "any court" in the law, which you have to unquestionably apply.

< /mocking >

163 posted on 04/26/2005 11:58:21 AM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: AmishDude
SCOTUS can rule on Treaties made by Congress. Not on individual citizens actions overseas. Nor can the SCOTUS apply foriegn convictions to prohibit a US Citizens Rights under our Constitution on our Soil.

A Felony in Japan means you are a felon in Japan under Japanese law. Period. This does not mean that your actions were a felonious offense under US Law and by the US Constitution. Period. End of story.

164 posted on 04/26/2005 12:00:42 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (Never underestimate the will of the downtrodden to lie flatter.)
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To: ClintonBeGone

Title 18. There's no definition.


165 posted on 04/26/2005 12:02:44 PM PDT by Texas Federalist (If you get in bed with the government, you'll get more than a good night's sleep." R. Reagan)
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To: AmishDude
But Congress said "any" and the Supreme Court is not obligated to correct Congress' mistakes.

They are obligated to correct Congress' mistakes if the mistake results in an unconstitutionality as it did in this case. Ruling that "any" applies to foreign courts would deprive U.S. citizens of due process of law.

166 posted on 04/26/2005 12:04:39 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Southack
Courts have jurisdictions, and legitimacy. The US government recognizes other nations' sovereignty and the legitimacy of their courts. I quote justice Thomas:
Of course, the phrase “any court,” like all other statutory language, must be read in context. E.g., Deal v. United States, 508 U. S. 129, 132 (1993). The context of §922(g)(1), however, suggests that there is no geographic limit on the scope of “any court.”2 By contrast to other parts of the firearms-control law that expressly mention only state or federal law, “any court” is not qualified by jurisdiction. See 18 U. S. C. §921(a)(20) (excluding certain “Federal or State offenses” from the definition of “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year”); §921(a)(33)(A)(i) (defining a “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence” by reference to “Federal or State law”).3 Congress’ explicit use of “Federal” and “State” in other provisions shows that it specifies such restrictions when it wants to do so.
It is quite simple. Congress could have said Federal and State but didn't because they wanted foreign courts to apply.
167 posted on 04/26/2005 12:04:57 PM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AD fan club: "lol, Good one AD."--gopwinsin04; "Hey, AmishDude, you are right!"-FairOpinion)
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To: AmishDude
Those specific words are actually written in the code. Why are they not repeated in section 922?

I think it is a stretch to say it is deliberate.

168 posted on 04/26/2005 12:05:40 PM PDT by Texas Federalist (If you get in bed with the government, you'll get more than a good night's sleep." R. Reagan)
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To: FreedomCalls

Breyer does not assert unconstitutionality.


169 posted on 04/26/2005 12:07:08 PM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AD fan club: "lol, Good one AD."--gopwinsin04; "Hey, AmishDude, you are right!"-FairOpinion)
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To: FreedomCalls
"They are obligated to correct Congress' mistakes if the mistake results in an unconstitutionality as it did in this case. Ruling that "any" applies to foreign courts would deprive U.S. citizens of due process of law."

Precisely. The SCOUTUS could have done two things: it could have interpreted "any" to mean "all possible courts, worldwide, public and private" and then declared the law unconstitutional because all possible public and private worldwide courts do *not* insure Constitutional due process, OR

SCOTUS could have simply said that Congress made an error, that Congress could correct that error if so desired, and in the meantime tossed the one defendent's conviction.

170 posted on 04/26/2005 12:08:14 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Texas Federalist

I do not. The lawyers that write these laws know precisely what they are doing.


171 posted on 04/26/2005 12:08:14 PM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AD fan club: "lol, Good one AD."--gopwinsin04; "Hey, AmishDude, you are right!"-FairOpinion)
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To: iconoclast
Legislators, at all levels, make mistakes. It is not the SC's charge to correct them!

It is if the mistake results in unconstitutional action. Here a U.S. citizen would be deprived of due process of law resulting from a foreign conviction, therefore the statute is unconstitutional as written. It is the SC's charge to correct unconstitutional legislation. That's what they are there for.

172 posted on 04/26/2005 12:08:42 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: AmishDude
"It is quite simple. Congress could have said Federal and State but didn't because they wanted foreign courts to apply."

Your intellectual lack of acumen disappoints me. If "any court" means "any court," then Sharia Law Courts in Iran count, as do Confederate Courts in Alabama, as do militia courts, as does the Earth Liberation Front's terroristic court. Either "any" means "any" or it doesn't. Either "court" means "court" or it doesn't. Notice that the law didn't specify "legal" courts or public courts or private courts or U.S. courts. If the law has to spell *everything* out as you maintain, then Sharia courts and Alabama Militia Courts count just as much as foreign courts.

173 posted on 04/26/2005 12:11:39 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: AmishDude
The lawyers that write these laws know precisely what they are doing.

If they did, the law would have been written much clearer. Like any legal document, there are many unanticipated ambiguities that were not anticipated when the law or document was drafted.

174 posted on 04/26/2005 12:12:26 PM PDT by Texas Federalist (If you get in bed with the government, you'll get more than a good night's sleep." R. Reagan)
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To: AmishDude
"Breyer does not assert unconstitutionality."

See Post # 170. He doesn't have to based upon how he read "any."

175 posted on 04/26/2005 12:13:28 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: SoFloFreeper

Now the push must be to declare this a victory for INDIVIDUAL gun ownership rights. No militia mentioned here.


176 posted on 04/26/2005 12:14:08 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: Southack
FreedomCalls made the unconstitutionality claim. I assert that even Breyer doesn't make that claim.
177 posted on 04/26/2005 12:14:53 PM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AD fan club: "lol, Good one AD."--gopwinsin04; "Hey, AmishDude, you are right!"-FairOpinion)
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To: longtermmemmory
"Now the push must be to declare this a victory for INDIVIDUAL gun ownership rights. No militia mentioned here."

Aye. The Court is clearly acknowledging individual rights to bear arms here.

178 posted on 04/26/2005 12:15:37 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: AmishDude
"FreedomCalls made the unconstitutionality claim. I assert that even Breyer doesn't make that claim."

Breyer doesn't have to. READ POST #170!

179 posted on 04/26/2005 12:16:18 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: AmishDude
Cite me chapter and verse in the Constitution that Congress cannot pass a law that recognizes judicial decisions that take place in another country.

The Fifth Amendment: No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. Foreign courts do not provide due process.

180 posted on 04/26/2005 12:18:39 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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