Rice urges Israel to avoid unilateral steps on Jerusalem

Last Update: 06/02/2005 20:55
Rice urges Israel to avoid unilateral steps on J'lem
By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent Haaretz Staff and Agencies

Prime Miniser Ariel Sharon and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice ahead of their talks in Jerusalem on Sunday.
(AP)

Condoleezza Rice laying a wreath at the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum in Jerusalem on Sunday.
(Reuters)

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Sunday met with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and President Moshe Katsav, and urged them to maintain the status quo over Jerusalem, and avoid taking any unilateral steps on the disputed capital which could harm Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas. Israeli sources said Rice was referring to the government's decision from last summer to apply the absentee property law to tens of thousands of dunams (acres) of Palestinian property in East Jerusalem. Attorney General Menachem Mazuz last week instructed Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to order an immediate halt to the application of the law. The sources said Rice may also have been referring to the decision to build the separation fence in Jerusalem, and to expand Jewish neighborhoods in the city.

Rice said Sunday that the disengagement plan is an historic opportunity, and that the future security of Palestinians and Israelis will be ensured only by two states exisiting side by side.

In an interview with TV Channel 2 Rice emphasized the importance of direct contact between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators, and minimum involvement of mediators such as the U.S.

When asked about the right of return for Palestinian refugees, the secretary of state said that while new demographic realities since 1967 must be taken into account, the parties must reach an agreement accommodating to the needs of them both.

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom, who was the first Israeli official to meet with Rice on Sunday, told the secretary of state, "Israel will not relinquish its sovereignty over Jerusalem. The issue of Jerusalem will be left to the final status agreement, but we have to intention to harm the Palestinians."

Rice also said that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan must be implemented without delay, and carried out according to its timetable. She told Shalom that Abu Mazen [Abbas] was elected through democratic elections and he needs as much help as possible to give a firm basis to his leadership. Shalom responded that "the pain of the settlers [to be evacuated under the plan] must be understood and empathy must be shown. These people do not know where they will live or where they will work.

Rice arrived in Israel in an optimistic mood Sunday afternoon, as she prepared for talks with Israeli and Palestinian officials two days before the first official Middle East summit since the death of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat last November.

Her first stop was a visit to the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum in Jerusalem, where she laid a wreath inside the Hall of Remembrance.

She then met with Shalom, followed by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. She is also due to meet President Moshe Katsav later Sunday.

Ahead of their meeting, Sharon said he was sure his talks with Rice would "contribute to the friendly relations between the two countries." Sharon said he also expected her visit to contribute to the peace process, "which we want to very much want to push forward in the region."

In response, Rice said U.S.-Israel relations were solid "because we share not just interests but values." She said her goal was to "try to advance the cause of peace and to overcome the scourge of terrorism."

Before meeting Shalom, Rice said, "we will ask of our partners and our friends in Israel that Israel continues to make the hard decisions that must be taken in order to promote peace and... the emergence of a democratic Palestinian state.

"This is a time of optimism because fundamental changes are underway in the Middle East as a whole," she added.

After their meeting, Shalom told Channel 2 television that he gave Rice Israel's demands of the Palestinians.

"If the Palestinians do not to everything to halt the smuggling of weapons through tunnels, close the tunnels, close the weapons workshops, gather up illegal weapons - we would simply be giving the violent groups time to regroup and then carry out terror attacks that could collapse the whole process," he said.

On Monday, Rice will travel to the West Bank city of Ramallah for talks with Abbas and Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia.

Tuesday's summit, hosted and initiated by Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in the resort town of Sharm el-Sheikh, will be attended by Sharon, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and Jordan's King Abdullah.

Although the U.S. has said that the secretary of state will not attend the talks, her agenda is likely to include in part a review of the plans for the summit.

Rice has signaled she prefers to see Sharon and Abbas make progress as free of foreign mediation as possible.

"I hope we would all get into a mind-set that says if the parties are able to continue to move on their own, that's the very best outcome," Rice told reporters en route to Ankara, the stop before Israel.

Preparations for the Egypt summit are being finalized, but not before her arrival.

Israeli officials assessed that the secretary of state would commend both sides on their recent efforts.

Paul Patin, a spokesman of the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv, said Rice would bring up a wide range of issues, including Israel's commitment under the internationally backed road map peace plan to dismantle dozens of unauthorized West Bank settlement outposts and Israeli gestures to the Palestinians, such as the removal of Israeli checkpoints that disrupt Palestinian travel - gestures that would bolster confidence in the new Palestinian leadership.

"Outposts are something that they promised to remove years ago and we expect them to abide by their commitments," Patin said.

She is also expected to call on the Palestinians to do more to restore security and bring an end to violence.

For their part, the Americans are trying to play down Rice's absence from the Egyptian summit.

"It is not necessary to participate at the highest level in every gathering in order to be a major player and part of the solution," a State Department spokesman explained Saturday.

In Israel, police raised their level of operations in various regions around the country Sunday, in anticipation of Rice's arrival and the run-up to Tuesday's summit.

Police decided to bolster forces around the country and checkpoints were set up between the seam line and various Israeli cities. Police will conduct both regular and undercover patrols.

Sharon may invite Mubarak Israeli officials, meanwhile, said Sunday that Sharon may invite his Egyptian counterpart to visit Israel during Tuesday's summit, as relations between the former enemies continue to flourish.

The invitations "is quite likely," said an unnamed official. "We would very much like him to come."

In recent months relations have improved as Egypt took a larger role in mediating between Israel and the Palestinians. The last visit by an Egyptian leader to Israel was by Mubarak in 1995, when he came to the funeral of assassinated prime minister Yitzhak Rabin.

Well, in case you are interested, I have been guilty of smuggling food to help feed the poor Arabs... It is risky, I could get killed doing it so I do not do it very often. Wish I had the guts to do it more often. Some times it takes all the energy I have just to face the bus bombs to get to work. Some times I think of the easy life back home in California, where I was just focused on myself and what I wanted, instead of others needs.

What have you done besides shoot off your mouth and accuse me of all kinds of stuff you do not have a clue on, having never met me? Ever spent any of your life risking it to help the oppressed, or are you all talk and no action?

What I wrote to you, and you were too silly to try to understand was WARNINGS of what is going to happen, not what I wished would happen. Are you nuts? Step 4, seal number 5, clueless liberal morons that are do not understand life are going to be killing guys like me for not fitting in to your Utopian ideas. And you will think you are doing "God" a favor. Do you think I WANT this?

Step back from the keyboard, take a deep breath and RE-READ my posts without the chip on your shoulder. It may just save your life someday. Seriously, you need to get a clue. Because these are the end-times, the Book of Revelations was written to Reveal what is happening to you to you so you will understand and not get sucked into the lies.

If you think I took all that time to create that post just to piss you off you think way too much of yourself. That is prophecy, a difficult subject even for Christians who have studied the Books for years.

I took the time to HTML it to death, in hopes that you might begin to understand how much you do not understand. My first post was to try and sink in the highpoints so that when you see them happen, you just might remember this conversation and wake up. The hope is you will begin to seek God, to try and understand why things are going to happen this way. If you do, you may succeed in finding Him, and I will get to meet you with Him. If you do not care enough about God to seek answers to this riddle I have placed before you, you will simply miss the boat and be destroyed. Missing the boat is the easy path.

Surprise me, give a rip about God, and seek what HE is about, instead of just seeking a philosophy that makes God fit your picture of Him. I promise you this, if you earnestly do seek God, you will find Joy greater than you can imagine in all your days and you will find that God is a lot sweeter and larger than you thought up on your own.

Now, remember this, I have shown you that what you thought was blasphemous was written by the spirit of God to warn mankind. The one you were accusing of blasphemy was God. I found that deliciously ironic I must admit.

What I hope for is for all these idiot politicians to go away and stop giving money to terrorists so they will go out of business and I can have my Arab friends back. I would like not have to wonder when my wife is going to the grocery store is this the last time I will see her, to not have to look at each one that is getting on my bus wondering is this the one? I would like to not have to see all the people without arms or legs or eyes, or see all the people in the streets with tears running down their faces. You have not lived under daily terrorist attacks for 5 years like me. Do you know the difference between a belt bomb, a bus bomb, a mortar round or tank fire by the sound of it like I? Have you had friends shredded by glass and nails from someone they never knew and now will never know? I have not a bit of desire for revenge. I want the terrorists destroyed so that rightious men, both Arabs and Jews can be free again. But people like you, creating peace have brought this on me.

You judge a tree by its fruit.

Beware of the times when they call "Peace, Peace" and there is no peace...

So let’s see – you say this to me:

What have you done besides shoot off your mouth and accuse me of all kinds of stuff you do not have a clue on, having never met me? Ever spent any of your life risking it to help the oppressed, or are you all talk and no action?

Now that might be meaningful if you hadn’t made all kinds of assumptions about me – having never met me. I don’t respect people,( or think of them as spiritual), when they don’t live by the principles they demand of others. Let’s look at some of the things you have stated,( as if they were true), about me:

You show your foolishness when you think that God is on the side of evil. Call me a blasphemer if you will, but I bet that God will do as He says in the Bible and destroy the wicked on the earth in His WRATH as he promised. The nice thing is I figure you are going to be alive to see it, nice and personal. I suggest you turn from your wicked ways, or it may be a bit too personal for your liking.

So we see what I said, right out of the bible. The one you are calling Blasphemous is The Book of Revelations. I suggest you quit being such a liberal mamby-pamby CINO and read your Bible. You know little of the time of the seasons and apparently less about God. I would hate to see you miss this part:

What I wrote to you, and you were too silly to try to understand was WARNINGS of what is going to happen, not what I wished would happen. Are you nuts? Step 4, seal number 5, clueless liberal morons that are do not understand life are going to be killing guys like me for not fitting in to your Utopian ideas. And you will think you are doing "God" a favor. Do you think I WANT this?

Insane people like you scare me. You are very dangerous. I don't mind so much when you drink and drive, it is the people you run over that bother me.

The bridge is out in your spiritual life, wake up and take charge, because your present path leads to destruction.

So, so far you have said that I am: following wicked ways, I am too silly to try to understand your amazing end time prophecies, I am a liberal mamby-pamby CINO, I have Utopian ideas that are known to you, I am insane, I am dangerous, I not only drink and drive – I run over people, and I’m on the road to destruction.

What I can tell you – is that I do not respect your hypocricy – and I cannot take you seriously.

You say:

It doesn’t read like a warning to me. If you were honestly trying to warn me – why wouldn’t you have said “I want to warn you”? Instead you said:

The nice thing is I figure you are going to be alive to see it, nice and personal.

To me that reads as some kind of maniacal glee in the possibility of horror coming into my life. It certainly doesn’t read as a loving warning from a person who cares about me.

You say:

Because these are the end-times, the Book of Revelations was written to Reveal what is happening to you to you so you will understand and not get sucked into the lies.

These are not the end times. Though I am aware that lots of people think they are. Lots of people have thought there were for a long, long time :-). Some people get all titilated about it – some manically so as they wickedly delight in the destruction of others. In your quote from Revelations it says: things which must shortly take place. That can be “interpreted” many different ways – but if two thousands years is not “shortly taking place” – then I don’t think three thousand is either.

Just fyi, here is how your so-called “warnings” impacted me. They didn’t scare me. They didn’t make me suddenly “awaken” and realize that you are spiritual man, they didn’t make me suddenly realize that peace cannot come to the ME through an increase in freedom and democracy as our President says. It reminded of little kids who used to play “my dad can beat up your dad” but, in this case, it’s “my “god” will beat up your “god” and it’s going to be ugly.” I felt like you were trying to beat me up with the “club” of you dogmatic beliefs.

If you are sincere – and I’m not sure that you are – you could really improve your delivery :-).

Beyond that – you are wasting your time trying to “convert” me or ridicule me into changing my mind. I truly believe that God loves everyone because God created everyone. And I truly believe that it is in everyone’s nature to want to be free. And so I support President Bush and Dr. Rice in what they are doing in Iraq and in the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict.

From Charles Krauthammer:

>>>It is now conventional wisdom that the new opening to a Middle East peace is a result of Yasser Arafat's death. This is only half true, and it misses the larger point.<<<

>>> Arafat's death was a necessary condition for hope, but not a sufficient one. It was necessary because Arafat had the power to suppress and literally kill any chances of peace. But his passing would have meant nothing if it had not occurred at a time when the Palestinians finally realized that Arafat's last great gamble, the second intifada, was a disaster.<<<

>>> The reason history does not always repeat itself is that the interval in between often leaves its mark. The Palestinians know that Arafat's war left them a legacy of death, corruption, misery, international isolation and social ruin as the myriad militias he created roam the streets, terrorizing their own people. That is why they elected Mahmoud Abbas, who campaigned against the intifada.<<<

>>> Is Abbas a real peacemaker? We do not know yet. He was disappointing during the election campaign, when he paraded around with terrorists and promised to protect them. He was disappointing again last week (Feb. 5) when the PA arrested three terrorists in Gaza and then released them a few hours later, an alarming repetition of Arafat's revolving door arrest policy: Arrest them at the front door for the cameras, then release them out the back door.<<<

>>> On the other hand, Abbas has deployed PA troops in Gaza, ordered all attacks to stop and resumed security cooperation with Israel. His prime minister ordered the collection of all unlicensed weapons in Palestinian-controlled territories, although, given the chaos Arafat left behind, the order will have about as much effect as a similar order issued in Baltimore. <<<

>>>What we can say about Abbas is that while we (well, some) knew that Arafat was dedicated to perpetual war, Abbas is not. That is a start…<<<

read the whole thing

Warning given, shoot the messenger, hate the message all you wish. The nice thing is you are going to be alive to see it all, and you will have the warning to understand it. Just think how hard it would be to convince you if it was 1950 and you felt all was rosy. Why then, you would just die in ignorance.

You spend so much effort trying to find a way to discount the message, searching for hypocrisy in me, or what ever but not a tiny bit of effort trying to understand the message. Not a problem, it is your life, spend it how you wish. Some people would rather be right than correct.

Frankly I am using you as a contrast to the message, I sincerely do not think you are capable of understanding it. You would have to watch the Alice B Toklas movie to understand the reference to the blind judge. Yes, I am accusing you of being a blind judge.

You accuse me of judging you without seeing you, well yah, duh. But the real question is, was I wrong. Do you slam others for hating and not serving when you obviously hate, and do not serve? You could have shot me down in flames easily by simply answering my question, but noooo, you had to post and obscure the point, because I judged rightly. It was a shot in the dark, but I figured it would hit squarly because I see liberals with their noses in the air all the time about others intentions, and motivations but never see them in the ranks of those who actually serve.

No prob, frankly I would rather be wrong on the point. It would have been wonderful to have found common ground to communicate with. The only reason I pointed it out was to point out your lack of substance over form to our lurking audience. I am fighting the war on terror, you are hiding in burger king. Tough life you got there. Say hi to Sam Walton for me on your way to the movies oh so holy one.

It is up to you, take my advice on reading, respect the point that your statement that God is on all sides and that God does not get angry or wrathful, is silly and unlearned, and/or slander me all you wish. But I might suggest, that even if I am the worlds greatest fool, you can learn from me if you are a wise man. Only a fool can't learn from anybody.

My points are true, backed up by references, ignore them to your own peril. My job was to deliver the message. You made a stupid statement, I called you on it. It actually was a set up, my "predictions", it was you that took the bait. Hook, line, sinker, pole and half my hand! My, what big fangs you got there! -grin-

By the way, calling someone evil, and blasphemous is insulting, it was the way you started your conversation with me. It is pretty funny that you now are "angry" and "offended" at me for communicating with you that way. By your standards, I should just have blown you off for hypocrisy, but I tend to try to learn and teach everyone I meet, even if the meeting is odious.

Enjoy your weekend, and your Friday, think on what I pointed out, and for heavens sake, crack a Bible. It would open up a whole new world for you.

Seems to me that you have a real hard time with honesty.

As I have said, what you are demonstrating here is hypocricy. And I appreciate that for the sake of those reading along. You think it is just awful that I might be discounting your message without “trying to understand it” and yet that is exactly what you are doing. Where have you tried to "understand" my message? You are accusing me of what you yourself are doing. That is hypocricy. You tell me that I shouldn’t say things about you without having met you – but you say all kinds of things about me without having met me. That is hypocricy.

One does not live in America without knowing a lot about Christianity. Did you really think I was not familiar with Revelation? I have read it before. It does not speak to me. As I said – if “taking place shortly” can mean two thousand years. It can just as easily mean three thousand or four thousand. These are not the end times. I doubt that you will live another 50 years – but , if by I chance I am wrong, I wonder if you will have the honesty or the honor to admit just how wrong you are right now. The world will be carrying on and it will probably be better in some ways than it is now.

It is quite astounding to me that you have the gall to say that President Bush does not have a clue about what the Bible means. Do you really want to be on record as comparing yourself to President Bush and claiming to be a better man than he – more spiritual than he – more leanred in the Bible than he?

Frankly I am using you as a contrast to the message, I sincerely do not think you are capable of understanding it. You would have to watch the Alice B Toklas movie to understand the reference to the blind judge. Yes, I am accusing you of being a blind judge.

Again, you demonstrate your hypocricy. You do not know me from Adam – and yet you tell me what I am able to understand. You are judgemental – not insightful.

You accuse me of judging you without seeing you, well yah, duh.

And here you admit to your hypocricy. You tell me that I should not judge you without having met you – but you demonstrate the hypocricy of one who says “do as I say – not as I do”. That reflects badly on you. Please explain how it is that it is ok for you to judge me without knowing me – but it is not ok for me to do the same?

But the real question is, was I wrong. Do you slam others for hating and not serving when you obviously hate, and do not serve? You could have shot me down in flames easily by simply answering my question, but noooo, you had to post and obscure the point, because I judged rightly. It was a shot in the dark, but I figured it would hit squarly because I see liberals with their noses in the air all the time about others intentions, and motivations but never see them in the ranks of those who actually serve.

And here you just dig yourself deeper into your hole of hypocricy. I didn’t respond to your accusation. I saw no reason to. I was pointing out to you that you do not live by your own principles. You still have no idea whether or not I “serve” others. I have not said. You do not know. And yet, you choose to accuse and to judge without knowledge. You are a hypocrite. You do not live by the standards you assign others to live by. You should be ashamed! You call me a liberal. You are wrong about that. Again, you do not know me. You have no idea. I would guess that you simply enjoy name-calling. Right?

It is up to you, take my advice on reading, respect the point that your statement that God is on all sides and that God does not get angry or wrathful, is silly and unlearned, and/or slander me all you wish. But I might suggest, that even if I am the worlds greatest fool, you can learn from me if you are a wise man. Only a fool can't learn from anybody.

You display both arrogance and more hypocricy here. The arrogance is incredible – telling me that I should take the advice of a hypocrite. And the more hypocricy is that you are telling me that only a fool can’t learn from anyone. What have you “learned” from me? You should have made clear what you have learned from me before making such a statement.

God loves everyone. God is on the side of the Palestinians. Do you honestly want to claim otherwise? You do not know about God if you think that God does not want happiness and peace for the Palestinians. Does that mean that He supports suicide bombing. Of course not – that is obvious. But, even so, God loves them with 100% of His love. God is not about wrath and vengeance – those are human qualities. God is Love. When God says, vengence is mine - that is a lesson for us to leave that to Him. It is a lesson for us NOT to be vengeful. I think there are people who prefer to believe that God is vengeful and mean because if they opened themselves even the tiniest bit to the magnificence and majesty and unlimited nature of His Love - they could never go back to their own vengeful and mean ways. Are you in that category?

More blatant hypocricy and dishonesty. You do not know me. In fact, you know nothing about me. And yet, you make all kinds of statements about me. Statements that are not true. That is bearing false withness. You need to tell yourself the truth about that – repent and change your ways.

By the way, calling someone evil, and blasphemous is insulting, it was the way you started your conversation with me. It is pretty funny that you now are "angry" and "offended" at me for communicating with you that way. By your standards, I should just have blown you off for hypocrisy, but I tend to try to learn and teach everyone I meet, even if the meeting is odious.

Hello? This from the guy who immediately, without knowing me from Adam – said I was foolish and engaging in wicked ways? This is just more blatant hypocricy from you. I said that for you to revel in the destruction of others – that is evil. And it is. You now deny that you are gleeful at the prospect of massive destruction – but that is how your posts read. Only you know if you are sincere. But for you to say that the first thing I did was call you evil – when you had already called me wicked is incredible hypocricy. That you cannot see that speaks volumes about you and your huge “blind spot”. You would do well to step back and do some work on and with yourself. You are displaying massive hypocricy.

And you would do well to really think about this: God loves everyone. Everyone. If you really think that that is not true – I pity you.

Seems to me that you have a real hard time with honesty. As I have said, what you are demonstrating here is hypocricy... You think it is just awful that I might be discounting your message without “trying to understand it” and yet that is exactly what you are doing. Where have you tried to "understand" my message?

To this point, your entire message is that I am evil, hypocritical and vengeful. I got that message. Finally you are getting around to a point, but it is all about trying to set me up as a straw man so you can stick pins in me.

You are accusing me of what you yourself are doing. That is hypocricy. You tell me that I shouldn’t say things about you without having met you – but you say all kinds of things about me without having met me. That is hypocricy.

No this is the internet, and it is called converstation. As we are 9000 miles apart, it would be silly to try and hold a conversation about your soul and not mention anything we have not seen wouldn't it? Perhaps this is your standard, then judge yourself by it. But for me, I thought to open a conversation on the points I put across by talking about my character and never getting around to the subject was obviously attacking the messenger to make the message go away.

...wonder if you will have the honesty or the honor to admit just how wrong you are right now. The world will be carrying on and it will probably be better in some ways than it is now.

Funny, the Bible warned in the last days scoffers would scoff saying things will always be as they were. Then the end would be like the days of Noah and the days of Sodom. (bible study skipped here on the parallels between Sodom and Noah as you are really not interested) I have news for you, rub-off Christianity is useless when standing before God on the Judgment day. God values relationship over religion or reasoning. I understand that Revelation does not speak to you, now that you admit that you are not a Christian. It is a very hard book to understand without the Spirit to interpret. To me, it is pretty plain text, but even then there are many things that I have no clue on.

I do not recall ever comparing myself to Bush, or calling my self a better man than he. In fact as my thread is still here, it is obvious I did not. I think it is just more straw piled at the foot of my stake by you. However, clearly he does not understand the Bible when it relates to Israel in the last days, or he has another agenda entirely. Sorry if it hurts your Bush worship, but it is true. Bush may be a fine president, but he would never get a ministers license for his Bible understanding.

The problem we am facing here is another scripture, "Do not cast your pearls before swine, for they will just trample them and turn on you and rend you." You are that swine in the allegory, the pearls are the scripture and this is the rending I have received from you:
As I have said, what you are demonstrating here is hypocricy... That is hypocricy... That is hypocricy. ...It is quite astounding to me that you have the gall to say... Again, you demonstrate your hypocricy... You are judgemental – not insightful... And here you admit to your hypocricy... You tell me that I should not judge you without having met you – but you demonstrate the hypocricy ...Please explain how it is that it is ok for you to judge me without knowing me – but it is not ok for me to do the same? (have your cake and eat it too! :)... And here you just dig yourself deeper into your hole of hypocricy... And yet, you choose to accuse and to judge without knowledge. You are a hypocrite... You should be ashamed!... I would guess that you simply enjoy name-calling. Right?... You display both arrogance and more hypocricy here. The arrogance is incredible – telling me that I should take the advice of a hypocrite. And the more hypocricy is that you are telling me that only a fool can’t learn from anyone. What have you “learned” from me? You should have made clear what you have learned from me before making such a statement ...they could never go back to their own vengeful and mean ways. Are you in that category? ...More blatant hypocricy and dishonesty....That is bearing false withness. You need to tell yourself the truth about that – repent and change your ways... This is just more blatant hypocricy from you. I said that for you to revel in the destruction of others – that is evil. And it is... is incredible hypocricy... You are displaying massive hypocricy.

Um, I got the message you are trying to put across. Not sure just who you are trying to convince, me or you but I see your pointed efforts.

Now for the sake of sanity, let me remind you that I made a list of predictions that you called me evil for making, and that the list was blasphemous. I pointed out that the list was prophecy, not my desires, but you seemed to have missed that part, and I still stand condemed in your eyes. It is with such crys of hypocrisy that millions will be executed by the self appointed righteous in the coming days. But that is not here nor there even if it is the hidden point. When you slipped up and lapsed into talking about the subject instead of name calling, you said this:

God is love? True

When God says, vengence is mine - that is a lesson for us to leave that to Him.

False, that is a command. God is so much better at it, it is best to leave it in His hands. His vengeance is just, ours is tainted with our own hate and tends to degrade us. Best to just forgive and leave the vengeance part to God. In fact He commands that we pray for our enemies. I have learned in life it is a wise thing to do, because If I don't God's vengeance tends to make me feel very sorry for them. Sometimes, prayer causes repentance in the one that has offended God, and I end up not with an enemy but a friend. Then everyone is happy, including God.

It is a lesson for us NOT to be vengeful. What lesson? That God said Vengance is Mine? There is a lesson there, but only for those who are trying to obey God. It is a lesson that vengeance is not for man to take, for when we take vengeance it is not righteous, and does evil. When God take vengeance it either destroys evil with or without the perpetrator included in the destruction depending on if the perp is salvagable. Mans wrath does not work the righteousness of God. (that is the scripture you are missing that is the lesson part.

I think there are people who prefer to believe that God is vengeful and mean because if they opened themselves even the tiniest bit to the magnificence and majesty and unlimited nature of His Love - they could never go back to their own vengeful and mean ways. Are you in that category?

No, next question?

And you would do well to really think about this: God loves everyone. Everyone. If you really think that that is not true – I pity you.

I understand that God loves every one, and wishes none would perish, but I also understand that God is full of wrath for many for their wickedness and many will perish at His hand. God loves those He destroys for their iniquity. Rough on God, and also rather rough on the wicked.

I have now addressed the only paragraph in you post that was on subject in it's entirety. Now that all the personal attack dog stuff was weeded out of that paragraph, let us get to the entire substance of your post:

God is on the side of the Palestinians. Do you honestly want to claim otherwise?

AII

I am sorry but I simply cannot take you seriously. You continue to demonstrate hypocricy even as I take pains to point it out to you. Actions speak louder than words, as I’m sure your know, and it really doesn’t matter what you say now – your continued hypocricy speaks louder than anything you might write.

It is wrong to apply a standard to me that you are not able or willing to adhere to yourself. You just can’t come in here and tell me not to make assumptions about you while, at the very same time, you are making all kinds of assumptions about me. If you are sincere about wanting to converse with people – try to learn the skill of asking questions rather than making assumptions. It’s not hard to do and has its own reward. Another thing that you could benefit from is to ask yourself ” would I accuse myself of doing this?” before accusing someone else.

You really look bad on this thread because you are trying to point out a mote that “could” be in my eye (you don’t know yet because you have not bothered to get the facts) – but you are trying to point out a mote that “might” be in my eye – all the while you don’t even acknowledge or are unaware of the beam that is in your own!

ME:”You are accusing me of what you yourself are doing. That is hypocricy. You tell me that I shouldn’t say things about you without having met you – but you say all kinds of things about me without having met me. That is hypocricy.”

You: No this is the internet, and it is called converstation. As we are 9000 miles apart, it would be silly to try and hold a conversation about your soul and not mention anything we have not seen wouldn't it? Perhaps this is your standard, then judge yourself by it. But for me, I thought to open a conversation on the points I put across by talking about my character and never getting around to the subject was obviously attacking the messenger to make the message go away.

No, you are wrong. You need to develop the habit of asking people rather than judging them. You need to tell yourself the truth: you don’t know them – they are far away – you haven’t met them (whatever the truth is ) and ask questions. Don’t assume. Please don’t assume you know. Just ask.

We have reached the end of this “conversation”. I hope that you will learn from this. You have said that you are someone who can learn from anyone. I hope you learn to ask youself before judging someone: Would I accuse myself of doing this? and I hope that you will learn to take the time to ask people what they mean or whether they are even Christian before you “assume” that you know and attack them falsely.

When you says that Bush doesn’t have a clue” – you are comparing yourself to him. You are saying that you do have a clue and he doesn’t – meaning that you are “better”. And again, I repeat, I am sorry that you feel the need to play the game of “better than “ with a man of the caliber of President Bush. You look bad in the comparison and in the attempt at comparison as well.

If you believe the statement by their fruits ye shall know them then President Bush far surpasses you in doing good in this world. It is a sorry thing to see someone try to play “better than” – but you are comparing yourself to a truly great man.

I understand that God loves every one, and wishes none would perish

God is not on the side of the Palestinians.

Your two statements above contradict each other. God loves everyone including the Palestinians and He wants peace and happiness for everyone including the Palestinians so, therefore, He is on their side. That does not mean He wants them to defeat anyone. It means that God wants the Palestinians to have peace and happiness just as He wants you too. He is on your side as well. It’s not hard to understand.

I repeat. I cannot take you seriously. You have shown yourself to be a hypocrite. You do not live by the standards you assign to others. Actions speak louder than words and your actions here speak very loudly.

I do hope that in the future you will stop judging people and making assumptions about them – and simply ask them questions before you start attacking them on false premises.

I also hope that you will refrain from comparing yourself to President Bush and calling him “clueless” about the Bible and its meaning.

And I really hope that one day you will realize that God does love everyone – every single person, good, bad and indifferent. And God wants for each of them happiness and peace. And that includes the Palestinians. God is on their side. And He is on the side of the Jews. And He is on the side of the Christians. And He is on the side of those who do not even believe in Him. God is on everyone’s side.

Now I have never said that God supports political parties. You are misrepresenting me and I ask you to stop bearing false witness in that way. God loves all human beings because God created them. It’s not a difficult concept. And that means that God wants happiness and peace for all human beings. To think otherwise would be to claim that God wants evil for His creation – which is a ridiculous statement.

When you say:

You have got to be kidding me! God is on the side of a political party that is dedicated to terrorism, and has sworn domination of the world in the name of Satan?!

You are bearing false witness. Never I have said that God supports any political party. In fact, I have made it clear that I do not think that God takes sides in political disputes. I ask you now to stop bearing false witness to what I am saying.

For someone you cannot take seriously, you seem to spend a large part of each day insulting me. Do you have a life other than the internet? Do you have, say, friends?

Show me the Palestinian Peoples history pre, say 1950 on. Show me their culture, their exports, their language, their religion their anything. They do not exist in history. They are not a people. They ARE a political party. They were formed in 1965 or so, when the Jews stopped calling themselves the Palestinains. They are members of the PLO or the PA as it is now called. Anybody can be a Palestinian, just like anybody can be a democrat. I have met "Palestinians" who come from Syria and have parents that are from Syria as far back as anybody can remember.

While you may be having fun calling me a liar for stating the obvious truth, I just assumed you understood what you were talking about. Pardon me for that, I guess If you insist I will just assume you are an obnoxious know nothing from now on, and I will speak at a much lower level.

Now go away, and study some, and bring something to the table besides insults. I am going to start skipping to the bottom of your posts if all you are going to do is tag a line of substance on the end of paragraphs of foaming at the mouth.

As for God loving everyone, tell me, if your viewpoint is true, why did God destroy most of mankind for their wickedness during Noa's flood? Why did he wipe out Sodom? And why did he warn that he is going to wipe out most of mankind for wickedness in the very near future?

The answer is that God hopes man will repent and turn from his wicked ways that are leading to destruction. God says that He has to step in and do this because man is going to exterminate himself out of existance.

I suspect that the God you worship, this smiling God that loves and is on the side of mass murderers is not the God of the Bible. This god you worship, that cannot discern between good and evil, how old is he? Most 5 year olds can discern between good and evil. Perhaps your god has downs syndrome? No wait, even downs syndrome kids know the difference between killers and saints. Hmmm, interesting god you have...

Yes I have a point. The point is this, you do not know God, you serve yourself in life. Might want to think about God some more. After all, He thinks about you.

I do hope that in the future you will stop judging people and making assumptions about them – and simply ask them questions before you start attacking them on false premises.

I also hope that you will refrain from comparing yourself to President Bush and calling him “clueless” about the Bible and its meaning.

For someone you cannot take seriously, you seem to spend a large part of each day insulting me. Do you have a life other than the internet? Do you have, say, friends?

I will continue to point out any hypocricy or untruths that you write as long as you keep spewing them. And yes, I have a life that I enjoy.

The Palestinians are discussed as being a people. I am familiar with the history and why the notion of there being a “Palestinian people” was created. But that does not change the political reality and there will be a Palestinian state. And the people will be known as the Palestinian people. And God loves the people who will be known as “the Palestinian people”.

Whatever. Read the above paragraph you wrote. It is not even adult let alone Christian. Are you sure you are a Christian?

I repeat. I am not a Christian. Quoting the Bible to me is meaningless. That is what you believe. It is not what I believe.

I’m just highlighting this because it is so childish.

If you think that God does not wish peace and happiness for all His children – it is you who does not know God.

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