What Must I Do To Be Saved?

Worthynews.com ^ | July 11th, 1875 | D. L. Moody

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

WELCOME BACK, CalGal!!

This Posting is intended for the benefit of all interested Parties, both GRPL (Dr. Eckleburg and RnMomof7) and Neener (xzins and P-Marlowe) who have worked with me and the Religion Moderator concerning the case of our beloved Christian sister and political comrade-in-arms, CaRepubGal.

Pursuant to our long-running conversations with the Religion Moderator, and "CalGal"s agreement to hereafter avoid "Mormon Debates" on the Religion Forum (a special benediction is here offered to Ex-Mormon "P-Marlowe" for his invaluable support), HER ACCOUNT HAS BEEN RESTORED!!

(It remains to her to finalize her agreement with the RM; but the RM has decided to restore her Account up-front, in good-faith expectation of that covenant).

Let's barbeque the fatted calf, and raise a toast to her return.

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. (Deuteronomy 14:26)

And in keeping with that, I think we should also express our appreciation to the Religion Moderator for the hard work he does in overseeing the cantankerous Religion Forum, allowing us to "sharpen iron against iron" (even when things get hot and sharp). Support your Local Sheriff -- he's doing the Job which Jim Robinson asked of him, and we are all Jim Rob's invited guests.

Best, OP

[jkl1122]

I have not ignored a single verse you have pointed out. As for Romans 10:17, I think that is a wonderful verse,and one that is very important to the Scriptural teaching on salvation. Hearing the Word of God, which leads to faith, is very important. But it doesn't end there. You also need to repent of your sins(Acts 2:38,Luke 13:3), confess Jesus as the Son of God (Matthew 10:32), and be baptized for the remission of your sins(Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16).

There is not one single verse that lists it all, and you can't disregard some verses and cling to others. I have not tried to do that. I use Acts 2:38 a lot since it is the first recorded time in the New Testament where we are shown what needs to be done to come to Christ.

You still have not listed a single translation of the New Testament that translates Acts 2:38 to say "because of the remission of sins". I take that to mean there are no such translations. I find that odd since you claim that these Greek "experts" have shown that it absolutely means "because of" and not "for". And, if you take into consideration that a large majority of those who were working on the Biblical translations that we have probably believed the same way that you do, it is even more odd that the verse is always translated as "for the remission of sins". The only logical explanation is that the original Greek is very clear on the meaning.

[jkl1122]

The phrase "to the remission of sins" is not the same as "because of the remission of sins", and you know that. It is the idea of movign towards something, not looking back. It is the same grammatical construct as in Matthew 26:28, and yet you wish to have it translated completely opposite. Try again.

[xzins]

Welcome back, Ca.

I'm into this barbeque the fatted calf stuff. I prefer real wood flames....none of this gas grill fakery.

Gotta get that wood flavor in there!

[P-Marlowe]

Welcome Back CAGal.

We rejoice at your return.

I feel as if we should rename you prodi-CAGAL.

Hurry back to the threads.

[Gamecock]

Our beloved Sister?!? YeeeHaaw!

Now what about Dr Steve?

[Gamecock]

I'm into this barbeque the fatted calf stuff. I prefer real wood flames....none of this gas grill fakery.

Must bite tounge. Most not post anything mean. ;-)

BTW, do you have something for me?

[Buggman]

Do you Affirm, or Deny, that True Faith involves a Volitional Mental Action, initiated by a Decision of Will?

Any "Action" of any sort whatsoever is, by nature, a "Work" (an initiation of activity towards a specified purpose).

Sorry, OP, but Paul disagrees with you. Given the choice between your definition and his . . .

[xzins]

Must bite tounge(sic).

:>P

Now...what part of the fatted calf is that??? LOL!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Now what about Dr Steve?

I would like to see DrSteve restored. The RM knows that I have "agreed to disagree" regarding DrSteve's expulsion. But there's a lot more complications involved there.

CalGal never got into a personal dust-up with the Religion Moderator. As a result, it was easier for the RM and I to discuss her particular situation.

That's all that I really feel comfortable in saying.

---

Well, I'll say this one thing more -- if you have a disagreement with the Religion Moderator, take it FIRST to him PRIVATELY (Matthew 18:15). I have found the RM to be very accomodating, provided that the Christian Rules of Matthew 18 are followed.

Your Mileage May Vary -- that's just my personal experience.

[HarleyD]

"Nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone is ever saved before they believe."

You’re looking at salvation (regeneration) as some one time point decision - POOF – experience. Regeneration is a process which encompasses MANY individual steps. Granted, sometimes these steps may appear to us as a one time event but this is not always the case.

There are two cases in the Bible that talks about the regeneration experience in “slow motion” (over time). One is Abraham and the other is Cornelius. Their experience is almost exactly the same.

Step 1 God’s Grace in Revealing Himself “Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go forth from your country, and from your relatives and from your father’s house, to the land which I will show you; and I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing;…” Gen 12:1-2

Step 2 – Man’s Repentance “…he [Abram] built an altar to the Lord and called upon the name of the Lord” Gen 12:8

Step 3 – Man’s Faith in God-Saved by Faith “ then he [Abram] believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” Gen 15:6

Step 4 – Man’s Obedience to God’s Commands-Saved by Works “…”By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens…”Gen 17:16-17

You would have Abraham regenerated in Step 3 when he believed. But that doesn’t explain how Abraham was justified by his works as James points out which happened many years later. jkl1122 would have us believe regeneration occurs at Step 4 (or Step 2) but that doesn’t explain Romans (Step 3).

Regeneration is a process initiated by God. Step 1 is that God reveals Himself to us and blesses us. Once God initiates the process, as with the case of Abraham, He will protect us until the regeneration process is completed.

This raises an important point. Does God reveal Himself to everyone? This is not what the scriptures say.

“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” Matt 11:27 (also Luke 10:22)

“And Jesus said to him, [Peter] “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you [Jesus is the Christ], but My Father who is in heaven.” Matt 16:17

[Gamecock]

if you have a disagreement with the Religion Moderator, take it FIRST to him PRIVATELY

Something which I always try.

My post was not meant as a dig at the RM.

[CARepubGal]

Thanks my Elect Brothers in the Lord.

[Gamecock]

Well Howdy Ma'am, You must be the new school marm. ;-)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Sorry, OP, but Paul disagrees with you. Given the choice between your definition and his . . .

Nope, he doesn't.

You're attempting to re-create the False Dichotomy between Paul and James asserted by many anti-nomians.

But I say to you, that there is no Dichotomy, and that Faith without Works, is Dead.

True Faith, is a Working Faith.

"Lordship Salvation" is the only kind of Salvation. Messiah is both Savior and Commander -- the two Offices cannot be separated. There is no True Faith, without Obedience. And Obedience is a Verb. An Act. A Work.

Paul refers to those who would attempt to rely upon Good Works without Faith -- an earned salvation. He rightly denies such Dead Works as being of any Salvific Benefit.

But Salvation is not by Good Works without Faith, but rather by the Good Work of Faith: a Volitional, Active, Obedient, Working, Decision of Faith.

Do you Affirm, or Deny, that True Faith involves a Volitional Mental Action, initiated by a Decision of Will?

(Incidentally, you lose either way: if True Faith IS NOT an Active Work of Will, then it is a Passive Mind-Set of Belief-Awareness created by God and NOT by Human Decision -- Pure Divine Monergism. On the other hand, if True Faith IS an Active Work of Will, then it is a Work of Faith given by God Alone -- again, Pure Divine Monergism.

Either way, Heretical Arminianism loses.).

Best, OP

[CARepubGal]

Isn't Heretical Arminianism redundant? ;-)

[RnMomof7]

I do not handle condensation well

[RnMomof7]

Just answer one question, if one repents and believes and he dies before he can be baptized.. is he in hell?

[jkl1122]

That is up to God. The same as if he believes, but dies before he truly repents of his sins. All I know is that the Bible teaches the need for belief, repentance, confession, and baptism.

The question you brought up is an old argument against baptism, and it is using what are callled "hard cases". You don't use hard cases to decide what is commanded by God, you go by the Word of God. If a person is able, he/she must do as God has commanded in His Word.

[Buggman]

Nope, he doesn't.

Most certainly he does, multiple times. In fact, the very centerpiece of Paul's soteriology (and the Scripture's, by extension) is that trusting God for your salvation stands in opposition to earning His favor by working.

You're attempting to re-create the False Dichotomy between Paul and James asserted by many anti-nomians.

OP, did you even read my previous post to you (#650) before writing your reply? In point of fact, I quoted James to explain what Paul was referring to by "work of faith" in 1 Thess. 1:5, so how can I be recreating a false dichotomy? Further, as I explained in post #793 in regards to the relationship between baptism (a work) and faith:

The reconciling point between us is, I believe, James 2, which explains that saying that we trust God without a willingness to do His will (i.e. good works) is useless. It'd be like Abraham saying he trusted the Lord but refusing to leave Haran. Or to use a modern example, for me to say I trust you to catch me in one of those team-building exercises where you fall backwards and rely on another person to catch you, only I refuse to fall back--clearly, a trust that isn't willing to act isn't really trust.

And to paraphrase my post #791:

Again, I'm not preaching against doing good works, and if someone claimed to be saved by faith but never demonstrated it in their actions I'd have my doubts. But one shouldn't put the cart either in front of or beside the horse. The Bible is clear that faith results in salvation which results in good works, not that faith plus good works results in salvation or that faith is a good work that results in salvation.

The "act" of becoming saved is nothing more than choosing to trust God's provision of your salvation after He has taken the initiative in reaching you (i.e. through the Holy Spirit). However you want to twist it, the Bible is clear that God does not consider that trust a "work" in the sense that He considers giving to charity a work, for example. However, having put your trust in God, the process of sanctification--being conformed into the image of Jesus--begins, and it is in that process that our faith produces good works.

Do you Affirm, or Deny, that True Faith involves a Volitional Mental Action, initiated by a Decision of Will?

I wholeheartedly affirm it. What I deny is that the Bible teaches that that mental "action" constitutes a "work" that "earns" salvation. It is abundantly clear on this point:

But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom. 4:4-5)

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

Once again, we see that your Calvinism must depart from the plain truth of the Scripture in order to sustain itself. It bears noticing that you've not even attempted to deal with the above passages, which I also cited in my previous post to you. Simply put, you cannot, not without amending your human tradition that somehow even trusting God is a work.