Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
Amen!
***First, because as we have amply demonstrated from the Scriptures, God does not always (or even most of the time) focus on His eternal perspective. Therefore, to do so to the exclusion of the human perspective is not giving heed to the whole counsel of God.***
The counsel of God is the counsel of God, not the lets go ask man's opinion first to make sure we don't offend him and then make our counsel.
I don't think you have established that God has at any time formed his counsel after answering to man.
***Second, because we live in our time-bound perspective, and the Bible is meant to be a practical guide to life as much as or more than a "lofty" theological/philosophical text. It may be right for Hindus to focus on the "reality" of the Brahman (God) to the exclusion of the Maya ("illusion") of real life, but not for Christians. He has work for us to do in the real, temporal world.***
So, because we live in time, we can't have a God centered perspective.
I guess if you say so. I certainly don't have any problem.
***Third, because focusing exclusively on the eternal viewpoint tends to lead to a fatalistic, "it is written," attitude in which we attempt to abdicate the responsibility that God has plainly laid on us for our own actions according to the Scripture. We were not elected to be the Frozen Chosen.***
This sounds more like the Arminian accusations against Predestination and not anything which a God centered perspective would produce. I think you are just projecting your own fears into the matter. Besides, how can having a God centered perspective cause any kind of fatalism? It's like looking to see that God is in control and then freaking out because God is in control.
Oh well, to each his own.
***Fourth, because overemphasis of the eternal POV, unless tempered by the understanding that God's predestination is always predicated on His foreknowlege rather than the other way around, inevitably leads to the logical conclusion that God is the Author of sin--a clear slander of His character.***
Well, I know that you Arminians are always claiming that Predestination makes God the author of sin. I don't recall too many Predestinarians making that claim. It just looks like more Arminian fear intruding into the mix.
Besides, I don't know any thought out and reasoned exposition in which the argument is made that Predestination is not based upon God's foreknowledge. Perhaps you have one in mind that you would like to share.
***Balance, my friend, is key to studying the Scriptures. To take any one facet of God's counsel and declare it to be the whole of the jewel of His wisdom is nothing but human foolishness.***
And, I'm sure you know people who do this.
Christian.
***you are just trying to mess with me.***
I didn't realize that fully explaining your position was so taxing on you.
***Get it?***
Yep, you think that throughout history there have been more than one way of salvation, more than one gospel. Funny that the scriptures condemn that.
Christian.
jkll122:The Word of God is the Bible. It is not given in any other form.
ftd: Amen.
GLENNS: Remenants of those still suffering from Cartesian, rationalistic, enlightment philosophies. God help us!
For example:
The counsel of God is the counsel of God, not the lets go ask man's opinion first to make sure we don't offend him and then make our counsel.
Nothing I said even comes close to that, and you know it. As usual, the Calvinist must construct a complete straw man to even stay in the discussion. I could go on and pick apart your post point-by-point, but why bother? You're not really interested in having an honest discussion; you just want to take cheap shots to "win" the argument. It's not worth my time.
I guess your "godly" perspective doesn't keep you from willful blindness and/or willful lying about an opponent's POV. Exactly what good is it, then?
God help you from what? The truth?
***The money is not in your account, it is in an account with your name on it (lets say a swiss account).***
So, let me see if I get this. The money is not mine, but it is in an account with my name on it.
Oh brother!
***The money yours...***
Did you mean that the "money IS mine?" You are starting to become hard to read.
Ok, so the money is mine and it is in an account with my name on it. Yet, somehow, despite all this, I still have to go to the bank and claim the money that is mine and is in an account with my name on it.
Maybe the account is really not my account, but some guy who has my exact same name. Maybe the bank (read God) messed up the transactions and I have to go claim (straighten things out) my money.
Maybe that is what you mean.
***No, God has made all men savable if they will accept the free offer of salvation, since the debt has been fully paid.***
If the debt has been paid for every man, then why are all men not saved? Does man still owe God something or not. If not, then there is nothing owed. If man owes, then Jesus did not pay the full debt for every man.
Man, this Arminianism sure is confusing.
***The reason they do not salvation is not because it is not available to them, but because they do not accept the free gift.***
What does this mean: "The reason they do not salvation?" You really are not making very good sense right now.
Let me modify the analogy a bit. Let us say that you owe a million dollars and that if you don't pay, you will be cast into debtors prison until the full debt is paid. Some man comes along and pays your debt. There is not any requirement for you to accept this gift; it was legally applied to your account for your benefit. All you must do is enjoy the gift.
Now, that makes more sense than this bank job wierdness.
Christian.
Baptism does not remove your sins. Only the blood of Christ. We're getting into the multiple steps of regeneration. My belief is that you're saved the moment God wishes to give you a new heart. The rest are the results of God's work.
Are you asking about how many dispensations I see???
Aside from that: there clearly was a different aspect brought about with the introduction of the Law. The bible specifically says, "the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ."
Salvation bump.
If you come to the above conclusion, then you're not "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" are you?
Which is also a bible instruction for a Bible Christian.
Joh 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Your post makes no sense to me. I responded to your line in post 710 about "relying on works."
I replied that anyone who is coming to the conclusion of "relying on their works" is not rightly dividing the word of truth.
Perhaps I wrote it poorly. If you will, please read it again.
Not until you claim it, it does you no good, it remains in the bank. (real hard to understand)
Oh brother! ***The money yours...*** Did you mean that the "money IS mine?" You are starting to become hard to read.
Excuse the typing, but I think you understand what it meant.
Ok, so the money is mine and it is in an account with my name on it. Yet, somehow, despite all this, I still have to go to the bank and claim the money that is mine and is in an account with my name on it.
Oh, my, that is sooooo hard to understand.
You have to claim the money.
Maybe the account is really not my account, but some guy who has my exact same name. Maybe the bank (read God) messed up the transactions and I have to go claim (straighten things out) my money.
Maybe everything is perfect and all you do have to do is claim the money.
Maybe that is what you mean.
No, what I mean is that the money has been deposited and is waiting for you to claim it.
***No, God has made all men savable if they will accept the free offer of salvation, since the debt has been fully paid.*** If the debt has been paid for every man, then why are all men not saved? Does man still owe God something or not. If not, then there is nothing owed. If man owes, then Jesus did not pay the full debt for every man.
No man owes God anything since God has paid the debt for all men.
Man, this Arminianism sure is confusing.
No, not really, you are just confused
***The reason they do not salvation is not because it is not available to them, but because they do not accept the free gift.*** What does this mean: "The reason they do not salvation?" You really are not making very good sense right now.
The reason they do not have salvation (but you knew that)
Let me modify the analogy a bit. Let us say that you owe a million dollars and that if you don't pay, you will be cast into debtors prison until the full debt is paid. Some man comes along and pays your debt. There is not any requirement for you to accept this gift; it was legally applied to your account for your benefit. All you must do is enjoy the gift. Now, that makes more sense than this bank job wierdness.
No requirement to accept the gift, not even believing that it is there?
My, my salvation without faith.
And you say my analogy is weird.
I think we have found a constant theme in Pilgrims' posts.
You are never going to get through to him. Kinda reminds me of an old surf wagon I used to know.
***Not until you claim it, it does you no good, it remains in the bank. (real hard to understand)***
Yes, I understand. The is in an account with my name, but it not really mine until I withdrawl it. Of course, this is not how banks work at all. If the money is in my account, then it is mine. I don't have to claim it.
But, I guess that you can have your bank account and the money that is not really yours until you withrawal it. BTW, can I go get the money that is in your account but not really yours? I could do some things with it.
***No requirement to accept the gift, not even believing that it is there?***
Yes, you are correct that I am not required to accept the gift and no you are wrong about the belief. I said that all I have to do is enjoy the gift. In order to actually enjoy the gift, you have to know that it is there.
It is not really hard.
I enjoy my salvation, the salvation that the Father elected me to, the Son secured for me with his Penal Substitutionary Atonement, and that the Holy Spirit communicated to me. I don't believe that it is there in order to make it real. That sounds kinda mystic.
I believe that I am saved. I don't believe in order to get saved. All I have to do is enjoy the gift and glorify the giver.
Of course, the funny thing here is that your analogy doesn't exist anywhere, especially not in a real bank. My analogy exits both in the Bible and used to be the way debtors prison worked in England.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
***You are never going to get through to him.***
Thank you. I was once an Arminain and thought that banks worked the way Arminians think they work. Fortunately, I've visited several banks and they set me straight. They don't work like Arminians think they work.
***Kinda reminds me of an old surf wagon I used to know.***
You remind me of something, too.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
You can't even spell Arminian.
BTW WADWT?
The money isn't in your account, it is a account that you have been given access to, but you have to claim it.
But, I guess that you can have your bank account and the money that is not really yours until you withrawal it. BTW, can I go get the money that is in your account but not really yours? I could do some things with it.
Not unless you came and claimed it you couldn't.
***No requirement to accept the gift, not even believing that it is there?*** Yes, you are correct that I am not required to accept the gift and no you are wrong about the belief. I said that all I have to do is enjoy the gift. In order to actually enjoy the gift, you have to know that it is there.
Now, that is quite amazing.
You know its there-how?
It is not really hard. I enjoy my salvation, the salvation that the Father elected me to, the Son secured for me with his Penal Substitutionary Atonement, and that the Holy Spirit communicated to me. I don't believe that it is there in order to make it real. That sounds kinda mystic. I believe that I am saved. I don't believe in order to get saved. All I have to do is enjoy the gift and glorify the giver.
I don't believe in order to get saved.
You have to believe to get saved, believe in the Person and Work of the saviour.
Of course, the funny thing here is that your analogy doesn't exist anywhere, especially not in a real bank. My analogy exits both in the Bible and used to be the way debtors prison worked in England.
Having the debt paid still did not make the debtor a rich man.
To get to heaven you need more then to have your sins forgiven, you need God's righteousness, which only comes by accepting the free gift of salvation. (Jn.1:12)
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