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What Must I Do To Be Saved?
Worthynews.com ^ | July 11th, 1875 | D. L. Moody

Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe

Jesus Christ is calling you ...

What Must I Do To Be Saved?

Dwight Lyman Moody's Last Sermon in London. Preached in Camberwell Hall, Sunday Evening, July 11th, 1875.

Suppose you do not want to hear a sermon (on this last night) so much as you want to know how to be saved. I want, if I can, to answer that question, "What must I do to be saved?" There is no question that can come before us in this world that is so important; and I think that there is not a man in this audience to-night who does not feel interested in it.

I heard a man, when he was going out the other night, saying: "I do not believe in sudden conversion. I do not believe what the preacher said to-night, that a man could come in here a sinner, and go out a Christian." Now, I want to say that I do not believe in any other conversion. I do not believe that there ever has been a conversion in the world that was not instantaneous, and I want you to mark this: not but what many cannot tell the day nor the hour when they were converted. I will admit that: they may not know the time; but that does not change the great fact that there was a time when they passed from death unto life; that there was a time when they were born [ABCOG: begotten] into the kingdom of God. There must have been a minute when their name was written in the Book of Life. There must have been a time when they were ere lost, and a time when they were saved; but we may not be conscious when the change takes place. I believe the conversion of some is like the rising of the sun, and of others like the flashing of a meteor. But both are instantaneous, really, in the sight of God. There must be a time when life begins to rise; when the dead soul begins to live.

Now, this evening I want to take up some of the Bible illustrations. In the first place, there is the ark. There was a minute when Noah was outside of the ark, and another minute when he was inside. And, bear in mind, it was the ark that saved Noah: it was not his righteousness; it was not his feelings; it was not his tears; it was not his prayers. It was the ark that saved him. If he had tried to make an ark of his feelings, or of his prayers, or of his life, he would have been swept away: he would have been drowned with the rest. But, you see, it was the ark that saved him.

When I was in Manchester, I went into the gallery one Sunday night to have a talk with a few inquirers; and while I was talking, a business man came in, and took his seat on the outskirts of the audience. I think, at first, he had come merely to criticize, and that he was a little skeptical. At last I saw he was in tears. I turned to him, and said, " My friend, what is your difficulty?" "Well," he said, "Mr. Moody, the fact is, I cannot tell." I said, "Do you believe you are a sinner?" He said, "Yes; I know that." I said, "Christ is able to save you"; and I used one illustration after another, but he did not see it. At last I thought of the ark, and I said: "Was it Noah's feelings that saved him? Was it Noah's righteousness that saved him, or was it the ark?" "I see it, now," said he; "I see it." He got up and shook hands with me, and said: "Good-night: I must go. I have to go away by the train to-night; but I was determined to be saved before I went. I see it now."

A few days after, he came and touched me on the shoulder, and said, "Do you know me? " I said, "I know your face, but do not remember where I have seen you." He said, "Do you not remember the illustration of the ark? I said, " Yes." "It has been all light ever since," said he. "I understand it now. Christ is the Ark; He saves me; and I must get inside Him." When I went down to Manchester again, and talked to the young friends there, I found he was the brightest light among them.

Let me take another illustration. There was the blood in Goshen. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Now He does not say, "When I see Moses' feelings, or the feelings of the people, I will pass over you"; or, "When I see you praying and weeping, I will pass over you"; but, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." It was the blood that saved them, not their righteousness. And a little child by that blood in Goshen was just as safe as Moses or Aaron or Joshua or Caleb. It was the blood that saved them. Look! there is the Jew taking the hyssop. He dips it in the blood, and strikes it on the doorpost. One minute it is not there: the next it is there. The moment the blood is there they are saved. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Some people say, "If I were only as good as that minister I should feel so safe" or, "If I were only as good as that mother in Israel who has been praying fifty years for the poor and unfortunate, should I not feel very safe? " My friends, if you are behind the blood, you are as safe as any man or woman who has been praying for fifty years. It is not their righteousness and good works that are going to save them. They never saved any one. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." [ABCOG: Moody understands "pass over" to mean "bypass". It can also mean "hover over to protect"] And when I am sheltered behind the blood, then I am saved; and if I am not sheltered behind the blood, I am not saved. That was instantaneous, was not it? God says, "When I see the blood, it shall be a token, and I will not enter." Death came down and passed over Egypt; and where the blood was on the doorpost he passed by; but where the blood could not be found, in he went and took the victim away. The great palaces could not keep out death; wealth and position could not keep out death. He went and took the Crown Prince of Egypt; he took the richest and the poorest, the highest and the lowest. Death makes no distinction, except a man is behind the blood.

My friends, be wise to-night, and get behind the blood. The blood has been shed. The blood is on the mercy-seat; and while it is there you can be saved. God is imputing to His Son your trespasses and sins. He says, "I will look at the blood on the mercy-seat." Press in, my friends; make haste and get in tonight; for the Master of the house will rise up by-and-by and shut to the door, and then there will be no hope.

Take another case. When Israel went over Jordan, God told Joshua to have six cities of refuge; three on each side of Jordan. They were to be built on a hill, where they could be seen at a great distance, and the gates were to be kept open day and night. All obstacles were to be kept out of the way, the highway was to be kept in repair, the bridges and everything in good condition, so that nothing should hinder a poor man flying to the city of refuge. If a man killed another in those days, it was considered a great disgrace if the nearest relative did not take vengeance. "An eye for an eye, and a booth for a tooth." If a man killed another, the next kinsman was bound to put him to death. But if he could escape to a city of refuge he was tried, and if it was found he had not intentionally killed the man, he might live.

Now for my illustration. Suppose I have killed a man. I am out away in the woods working, and my axe slips out of my hand, and kills the man working with me. I know that his kinsman, his brother, is not far away. The news will soon reach him that I have killed his brother. What shall I do? I start for the city of refuge, over there away on the hill, ten miles off. I run - and we are told that in those days there used to be signposts with the word " Refuge," written in great red letters, so that a man might read as he ran; he need not stop. I have been told that there was a finger pointing towards the city, and a man who could not read might see the hand. A man does not have to learn to read before he can be saved. I see that hand; it is pointing to the city of refuge. The gate is wide open, but it is ten miles away. I leap over the highway. I do not look behind, to the right hand or to the left. I do not listen to this man or to that man, but, like John Bunyan, I put my fingers in my ears. The avenger has drawn his sword, and is on my track. I leap over into the highway; and, pretty soon, I can hear him behind me, Away I go, over that bridge, across that stream, up that mountain, along that valley, - but I can hear him coming nearer and nearer. There is the watchman; I can see him on the wall of the city. He gives notice to the inhabitants that a refugee is coming. I see the citizens on the wall of the city watching, and when I get near I hear them calling, "Run, run! Escape, escape! He is very near you! Run! escape!" I press on; leap through the gate of the city; and at last I am safe. One minute I am outside, and the next I am inside. One minute I am exposed to that sword; it may come down upon me at any minute: the next minute I am safe. Do I feel any difference? I feel I am behind the walls: that is the difference. It is a fact. There I am. The avenger can come up to the gates of the city, but he cannot come in. He cannot lay his sword upon me. The law of the land shields me now. I am under the protection of that city; I have saved my life; but I had no time for lingering.

A great many of you are trying to get into the city of refuge, and there are enemies trying to stop you, But do not listen to them. Your friends tell you to escape. Make haste! Delay not for a single moment!

In our country, before the war, when we had slavery, the slaves used to keep their eye on the north star. If a slave escaped to the Northern States, his old master could come and take him back into slavery. But there was another flag on American soil, and if they could only get under that flag they were for ever free. It is called the Union Jack. If they could only get as far north as Canada they were free; therefore they kept looking towards the north star. But they knew if they only got into the Northern States, there might be some one ready to take them back. So it is with every poor sinner who wants to come to Christ. Many men do all they can to hinder him; others will cheer him on. Let us help every man towards the north star. A man has escaped: perhaps he swims across the Mississippi river, or crosses the Ohio river in a little canoe. The master hears of it, and he takes his hounds and sets them on his track, and begins to hunt him down. The slave hears the hounds; and he knows that his master is coming to take him back to slavery. The line is a mile or two away. He escapes as fast as he can. He runs with all his might for the frontier, over hedges and ditches and rivers; away he goes for Canada. By-and-by he comes in sight of Canada. He can see that flag floating in front of him; and he knows that if he can only cross the line before his master and the hounds overtake him, he will be free for ever.

How the poor black man runs! leaping and bounding along; and at last, with one bound, he goes over the line. He is free! One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man, under the flag of Queen Victoria, the British flag! (cheers [ABCOG: by British crowd]) - don't cheer, my friends, but come to Christ - and your laws say that no man under that flag shall be a slave. One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man. One minute it is possible for his old master to drag him back; the next minute he shouts, "Free!"

If Christ tells us that we are free, we are free. My friends, Christ is calling to-night. Get out of the devil's territory as quick as you can. No slave in the Southern States had so hard a master as yours, nor so mean a master as Satan. Take my advice tonight, and escape for the liberty of your soul.

I can imagine some of you saying "I do not see how a man is really going to be converted all at once." Let me give you another illustration. Look down there. There are two soldiers. Now, if you bring those soldiers up to this platform, and ask them how they became soldiers, they will tell you this - that one moment they were citizens, and the next minute soldiers. What was it that made them soldiers? It was when they took the Queen's shilling. The moment they received that shilling they ceased to be citizens, and they became soldiers. Before they received that shilling they could go where they pleased; the next minute they came under the government and under the regulations of the army, and they must go where Queen Victoria sends them. They did not have to wait for the uniform. The minute they received the shilling they became soldiers. What made them soldiers? Receiving the shilling. What makes a man a Christian? Receiving Christ. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not: but as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God."

Now, the gift of God is eternal life. Who will have the gift to-night? When I was down in Manchester I asked that question, and a man shouted in the meeting, "I will! " Who will have it now? Is not there some man here in London, as there was in Manchester, who will say that he will have the gift? Is it not a wonder to have to plead with so many to take the gift? "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life." Who will have the gift now? (Many responses of "I will"; "I will.")

I can imagine one man down there who says "How about repentance? How about getting into the ark or the city of refuge before repentance?" My friend, let me ask you what is repentance? It is right-about-face! I think these soldiers understand that expression. Some one has said that every one is born with his back to God, and that conversion turns him right round. If you want to be converted, and want to repent, I will tell you what you should do. Just get out of Satan's service, and get into the Lord's. Leave your old friends, and unite yourself with God's people.

In a few days, if nothing happens, I expect to go to Liverpool. If, when I am in the train, my friend Mr. Shipton says, "Moody, you are going in the wrong train, - that train is going to Edinburgh" - I should say, "Mr. Shipton, you have made a great mistake; somebody told me the train was going to Liverpool. You are wrong, Mr. Shipton; I am sure you are wrong." Then Mr. Shipton would say, "Moody, I have lived here forty years, and I know all about the trains. He must have been very ignorant or very vicious who told you that train goes to Liverpool." Mr. Shipton at last convinces me, and I get out of that train and get into the one going to Liverpool.

Repentance is getting out of one train and getting into the other. You are in the wrong train; you are in the broad path that takes you down to the pit of hell. Get out of it to-night. Right-about-face! Who will turn his feet towards God? "Turn ye, for why will ye die?" In the Old Testament the word is "turn." In the New Testament the word is "repent." "Turn ye, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" God does not want any man in this audience to perish, but He wants all to be saved. You can be saved now if you will.

There is another illustration I wish I had time to dwell upon and that is about looking. There is that serpent in the wilderness. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man also be lifted up, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Look here! Just give me your attention for a few minutes. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." How long does it take a man to believe? Or, if you will, how long does it take a man to look? Some people say they believe in educating people to be Christians. How long do you educate children to look? You hear the mother say, "Look," and the little child looks. It does not take a child three months to learn to look. Look and live! You need not go to college to learn how to look. There is not a child here but knows how to look. Christ says, "Look unto me; for I am [ABCOG: the way to] God, and there is none else."

There is the brazen serpent on the pole. God says to the children of Israel, who are dying of the bite of the fiery serpents - "Look, and live!"

Now, there is nothing in looking at a piece of brass which can cure the bite of a serpent. It is God who cures it, and the looking is the condition. It is obedience; and that is what God will have.

One moment the poor sufferer is dying; the next there comes a thrill of life through his veins, and he lives: he is well. My friends, look to Christ, and not to yourselves. That is what is the matter with a great many sinners; instead of looking to Christ, they are looking at the bite.

It is not looking to the wound; it is looking to the remedy. Christ is the remedy of sin. What you want is to look from the wound to the remedy - to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Who will look tonight, and live? Turn your eye to Calvary; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.


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KEYWORDS: 230; dwightlmoody; moody; salvation; transcript
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To: RnMomof7; xzins
If the Holy Spirit has to regenerate someone before hearing the Gospel, the Gospel cannot be the means of election, but only incidental to it. Regeneration is not salvation... it is the quickening spoken of in Eph 2... One is quickened so one can hear the gospel and repent and believe. Regeneration___> Hearing_______>Repentance and Faith _______>salvation

That would make no sense.

When you are born you are born dead in Adam.

That is the basis of why were are spiritually dead, we are in Adam.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive (1Cor.15:22)

If you are regenerated you are now no longer spiritually dead and but, (according to Calvinism) not yet in Christ (which is where spiritual life is)

You are in a spiritual limbo, neither in Adam (dead/lost) nor in Christ (saved/alive)

You must be either one at any one moment, either spiritually dead or alive.

Salvation is not a process, it is an event, when you move from spiritual death (1st Adam) to spiritual life (2nd Adam) and that is through faith which precedes regeneration.

521 posted on 01/24/2005 11:19:46 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: GLENNS
Amen, Glenns.

Having been, like most Calvinists, on both sides of this debate, I can say without hesitation that sleep comes easier and cares are lighter knowing God is in control. After doing the best we can, it's a great and lasting comfort to realize whatever happens is what God wants to happen.

"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." -- 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5

522 posted on 01/24/2005 11:31:23 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

"Sola Fide" is such an obvious thing. "You can complicate the truth, and convolute the story, but salvation is about faith in a perfect man, dying a substitutionary death on a cross, and living forever." Do what Romans 10:9 says, and that's it...


523 posted on 01/24/2005 11:38:45 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: fortheDeclaration; RnMomof7
The assessment of God upon His creature was known to God before He made the creature. Otherwise, He's not God; He's some magnificent Geppetto who sends his creation out into the world and either forgets about him or can't keep track of him.

Regeneration, from a human perspective, is instantaneous. It is predicated upon nothing in man. It depends on the mind of God who ordained the elect from before the foundation of the world. We either possess Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or we don't. There is no "spiritual limbo."

Sanctification takes a lifetime.

Why does one man exert his free will to "choose to believe" in Christ while another man exerts his free will to "refuse" Christ? What's the difference within the two men?

524 posted on 01/24/2005 11:42:00 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: xzins
You are missing that Arminius does not consider himself outside the boundaries of a host of confessions; nor does he ever claim to have left the reformation or claim to be part of any counter-reformation. His assumption throughout is that the reformation had formerly been broad enough to include him. He always appears to be assuming himself as a part of the group. Since this is a collection that was published approx 6 months before his death, then we can say with assurance that he never felt he was outside the group.

I agree that Arminius always felt himself to be within the Reformed confessions.

That was what he was arguing for, to bring the Reformed back to the Bible, and not be defined by Calvin's Institutes (BK3).

The term 'Reformed' is used to distiquish the Calvinistic from the Lutheran and Anabaptist traditions. The Reformed traditions finds it roots in the theology of Ulrich Zwingli, the first reformer in Zurich, and John Calvin of Geneva,....( Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, p.423)

Vance writes (quoting Bangs in his work on Arminius) that Arminius deserves to be classified as an orthodox Dutch Reformed theologian.(p.131, Other Side of Calvinism)

525 posted on 01/24/2005 11:43:42 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: 185JHP
"Sola Fide." Certainly. The disagreement comes down to how does man possess saving faith in Jesus Christ? Is it within the fallen creature to believe on his own and thus faith becomes something smart men do in order to be saved?

Or is faith the means God uses to bestow His grace on the dead sinner, and thus bring him back to life anew -- God's gift of "grace through faith?"

Is faith an act of man or an act of God? Do we "agree to accept" grace or do we "freely receive" grace? Is Grace of man or God?

526 posted on 01/24/2005 11:48:42 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; RnMomof7; GLENNS; thePilgrim; Gamecock; Frumanchu; nobdysfool
I think we are really discussing Reformed theology that has come to be dominated by Calvinistic views.

Monergism/synergism.

It's not that tough. Ask Rome. They understand. Everyone but the Reformed believe man must do something before you're saved.

God does the "before." We have enough to keep us busy with the "after."

527 posted on 01/24/2005 11:55:58 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The assessment of God upon His creature was known to God before He made the creature. Otherwise, He's not God; He's some magnificent Geppetto who sends his creation out into the world and either forgets about him or can't keep track of him. Regeneration, from a human perspective, is instantaneous. It is predicated upon nothing in man. It depends on the mind of God who ordained the elect from before the foundation of the world. We either possess Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or we don't. There is no "spiritual limbo."

I know there is no 'spiritual limbo' because regeneration does not precede faith.

But in Calvinism it does and it a logical issue that you want to avoid, by emphazing now that it is instantaneous.

Something comes first in salvation either faith or regeneration and the time issue is irrevalant.

We know that salvation occurs in a moment in time.

Yet, logically there is an order, as you Calvinists are constantly harping on.

If your order were correct, the believer would be hovering between the dead Adam and the live Adam, alive yet not saved.

A person cannot be spiritually alive and not saved.

Your order of Regeneration preceding faith is simply a theological impossiblity that the Calvinists want to ignore.

Sanctification takes a lifetime.

Be careful, that sounds very Romanist!

Positional sanctification occurs at the moment of salvation, that is you are union with Christ.

Progressive Sanctification occurs during your Christian walk, this is where Rom.6:16 comes in, yielding to the Holy Spirit.

Finally, there is Ultimate Sanctification when we receive our Resurrection Bodies.

Thus, sanctification occurs in three stages, but salvation occurs in a moment,at the point of accepting Christ as one's savior.

The Holy Spirit then 'baptizes' you and brings you into Christ (1Cor.12)

Why does one man exert his free will to "choose to believe" in Christ while another man exerts his free will to "refuse" Christ? What's the difference within the two men?

Why does one Christian choose to grow up and others never do?

The issue is always what you desire, those who come to Christ desire the truth and those who don't, don't (Jn.3:19-21)

Remember that Christ is drawing all men to him (Jn.12)

Men must reject that drawing to be damned (Jn.16:9)

Also remember that faith is not a work (Rom.4:4-5)

And we are commanded to believe (Jn.6:29) but can claim no credit for doing so (Lk17:10)

Finally, I ordered the book, Swarm of locusts.

528 posted on 01/25/2005 12:02:51 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; xzins
Personally I don't believe the disagreement hinges on Unlimited vs Limited Atonement. I know many of my Calvinists friends would disagree with me but I think it's a non-issue. In the end EVERYONE (Arminians included) believe in Limited Atonement in the sense that Christ died ONLY for His flock. I just happen to think Limited Atonement is "neater" in its approach to the issue.

The real issue, one that few Arminians are willing to face, is the Total Depravity of Man. Man is WICKED from day one. He/she is spiritually DEAD as a doornail and needs to be "raised from the dead". This of course flies in the face that man is basically good and needs to make a "decision".

Scripture says time and again you must be born again. Time and again God comes to people, not the other way around. Time and again the Bible says faith is a gift from God, not self manufactured. Time and again the Bible says we are "dead", yet we believe we are capable of "doing something". Time and again the Bible says our hearts are wicked and there is no one that does what is right, yet we think things to the contrary.

God has to regenerate the dead heart. God has to come to us and make Himself known like He did with Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Saul, David, Jeremiah, John, Peter, Paul, Cornelius, and on and on and on. And when God has regenerated the heart people dropped what they're doing and followed. This isn't only Biblical examples but I've heard countless testimonies saying the same thing that, "I was at a Billy Graham meeting and something moved me to know that I was a sinner and needed a savior....". DUH!

What is really appalling to Arminians is to think that God regenerates the heart to follow Him. Yet this is what our Lord Jesus told Nicodemus needed to be done; "You must be BORN again." and Nicodemus wasn't in a position to rebirth himself. To believe one makes some sort of "intellectual" decision is to essentially deny the workings of the Holy Spirit.

As far as Perseverance of the Saints goes, I've always felt that if God would take the trouble to save a wretched sinner like me, when I was in the depths of depravity, why would He not help me in my walk now that He's begun a "good work" in me?
529 posted on 01/25/2005 12:09:33 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands
Monergism/synergism. It's not that tough. Ask Rome. They understand. Everyone but the Reformed believe man must do something before you're saved. God does the "before." We have enough to keep us busy with the "after."

Monergism/Synergism is a false issue.

Faith is not a work and thus cannot be viewed as adding anything to salvation.

The real issue is which comes first regeneration or faith, and the Bible says Faith.

As for keeping 'busy' after, what are you doing during your Christian walk.

Are you cooperating with God?

Is God controlling your every thought or are you resisting God when you refuse to yield?

Are you obeying God when you do yield?

Your progressive sanctification smacks of synergism (since you regard faith as a work)

The only alternative is that you are sinning because God will's that you sin and Rom.6:16-18 is just one of those 'facade' verses that is hiding the 'secret will' of God (as Calvin explained 2Pet.3:9 to be, and Spurgeon and Piper explained 1Tim.2:4 to be)

530 posted on 01/25/2005 12:10:38 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; GLENNS; RnMomof7; thePilgrim; Frumanchu; nobdysfool; ...
Faith is not a work

That's not what Paul says.

"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." -- 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5

531 posted on 01/25/2005 12:21:38 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: HarleyD
Total depravity

Amen. Dead is dead. That's the reason Jesus brought Lazarus back to life. He taught in parables, and thus we are Lazarus and can do nothing to save ourselves. Only God saves.

Gnosticism is at the root of all philosophy that denies this and asserts that man has something inherently good inside himself with which to save himself. Pelagius to the max.

532 posted on 01/25/2005 12:26:42 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Why does one Christian choose to grow up and others never do? The issue is always what you desire, those who come to Christ desire the truth and those who don't, don't

That's no answer.

Why does one man DESIRE the truth and another not?

What is the DIFFERENCE in the two men???

533 posted on 01/25/2005 12:30:47 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: HarleyD
Personally I don't believe the disagreement hinges on Unlimited vs Limited Atonement. I know many of my Calvinists friends would disagree with me but I think it's a non-issue. In the end EVERYONE (Arminians included) believe in Limited Atonement in the sense that Christ died ONLY for His flock. I just happen to think Limited Atonement is "neater" in its approach to the issue.

It would probably be more accurate to say that Christ died for all men but Atonement is only applied to those who receive it.

Thus, all men are savable, but the Atonement is only effective if accepted.

If one doesn't get under the Blood, then one stands on ones own works (Isa.64:6)

The real issue, one that few Arminians are willing to face, is the Total Depravity of Man. Man is WICKED from day one. He/she is spiritually DEAD as a doornail and needs to be "raised from the dead". This of course flies in the face that man is basically good and needs to make a "decision".

There may Arminians who believe this, but neither Arminius nor Wesley taught it.

Both held that man was totally depraved and needed God's grace to be saved.

The difference is that God's grace is given to all men and some reject it and some do not.

This rejection comes can come at various stages, at the recognition of God (Rom.1, Ps.19) or upon hearing of the Gospel (Jn.3:36)

Scripture says time and again you must be born again. Time and again God comes to people, not the other way around. Time and again the Bible says faith is a gift from God, not self manufactured. Time and again the Bible says we are "dead", yet we believe we are capable of "doing something". Time and again the Bible says our hearts are wicked and there is no one that does what is right, yet we think things to the contrary.

Well, both Arminus and Wesley believed faith was a gift of God (I will leave my personal views aside) and believed that faith was given to men but that man had the ability to reject it as well as receive it.

Thus, the differences between them and Calvin was simply the scope of the offer and irresistable grace.

Ofcourse, this then goes back to unconditional vs conditional election.

God has to regenerate the dead heart. God has to come to us and make Himself known like He did with Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Saul, David, Jeremiah, John, Peter, Paul, Cornelius, and on and on and on. And when God has regenerated the heart people dropped what they're doing and followed. This isn't only Biblical examples but I've heard countless testimonies saying the same thing that, "I was at a Billy Graham meeting and something moved me to know that I was a sinner and needed a savior....". DUH!

Adding light into a dead heart is not regeneration.

The Calvin view is that spiritual death means total absence of any will.

The will is there, but it needs light to show it an alternative to the darkness of Satan (2Cor.4:4)

Once that light is given (the Gospel), then the individual can believe the words or not.

If he rejects the Gospel, he is still an unbeliever and remains in darkness.

If he believes, he then becomes regenerate and is born again.

Regeneration is rebirth as when the world is regenerated when Christ returns (Matt.19:28)

What is really appalling to Arminians is to think that God regenerates the heart to follow Him. Yet this is what our Lord Jesus told Nicodemus needed to be done; "You must be BORN again." and Nicodemus wasn't in a position to rebirth himself. To believe one makes some sort of "intellectual" decision is to essentially deny the workings of the Holy Spirit.

What the Arminians reject (classical Arminians) is that God would choose some and not others with no objective reason.

A man is born again when the words of the Gospel take hold in his soul and he receives them as such,

Being born again not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever (1Pe.1:23)

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing cometh by the word of God.(Rom.10:17)

There is not one verse in scripure that says that man is regenerated before he believes.

As far as Perseverance of the Saints goes, I've always felt that if God would take the trouble to save a wretched sinner like me, when I was in the depths of depravity, why would He not help me in my walk now that He's begun a "good work" in me?

Well, that is very true, but it is not 'perserverance of the saints' but the perserverance of God.

You are eternally secure once you are born again because He will finish the good work He has started (Phil.1:6) and nothing can separate you from his love (Rom.8:38-39), but it has nothing to do with you perservering, it has to do with the fact that God has sealed you for the day of Redemption, (Eph.4:30) no matter what you do (1Jn.5)

534 posted on 01/25/2005 12:31:45 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Why does one Christian choose to grow up and others never do? The issue is always what you desire, those who come to Christ desire the truth and those who don't, don't That's no answer. Why does one man DESIRE the truth and another not? What is the DIFFERENCE in the two men???

What is the difference between Christians?

Why do some grow and other do not?

535 posted on 01/25/2005 12:33:08 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration

Is one smarter, stronger, more intelligent, more pious, richer, etc. than the other?

Something inherently inside them has to account for the difference between the two men's free will choices.

What is it?

Why did you, ftd, use your free will to "open the door" to Christ when your neighbor used his free will to ignore His "knocking?"


536 posted on 01/25/2005 12:37:20 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD
all men are savable

And yet that's not what Scripture says. Some vessels are made for wrath.

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou make me thus? Or hath no the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called." -- Romans 9:20-24

537 posted on 01/25/2005 12:43:35 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Why do you avoid answering your own question?

What makes two Christians different?

Why do some go onto meat and others remain babes on milk?

538 posted on 01/25/2005 1:00:22 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
LOL!

Oh, no, the dreaded Romans 9:20!

The final line of defense of Calvinism!

539 posted on 01/25/2005 1:01:34 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Good verse.


540 posted on 01/25/2005 4:08:39 AM PST by HarleyD
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