Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
That would make no sense.
When you are born you are born dead in Adam.
That is the basis of why were are spiritually dead, we are in Adam.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive (1Cor.15:22)
If you are regenerated you are now no longer spiritually dead and but, (according to Calvinism) not yet in Christ (which is where spiritual life is)
You are in a spiritual limbo, neither in Adam (dead/lost) nor in Christ (saved/alive)
You must be either one at any one moment, either spiritually dead or alive.
Salvation is not a process, it is an event, when you move from spiritual death (1st Adam) to spiritual life (2nd Adam) and that is through faith which precedes regeneration.
Having been, like most Calvinists, on both sides of this debate, I can say without hesitation that sleep comes easier and cares are lighter knowing God is in control. After doing the best we can, it's a great and lasting comfort to realize whatever happens is what God wants to happen.
"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." -- 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5
"Sola Fide" is such an obvious thing. "You can complicate the truth, and convolute the story, but salvation is about faith in a perfect man, dying a substitutionary death on a cross, and living forever." Do what Romans 10:9 says, and that's it...
Regeneration, from a human perspective, is instantaneous. It is predicated upon nothing in man. It depends on the mind of God who ordained the elect from before the foundation of the world. We either possess Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or we don't. There is no "spiritual limbo."
Sanctification takes a lifetime.
Why does one man exert his free will to "choose to believe" in Christ while another man exerts his free will to "refuse" Christ? What's the difference within the two men?
I agree that Arminius always felt himself to be within the Reformed confessions.
That was what he was arguing for, to bring the Reformed back to the Bible, and not be defined by Calvin's Institutes (BK3).
The term 'Reformed' is used to distiquish the Calvinistic from the Lutheran and Anabaptist traditions. The Reformed traditions finds it roots in the theology of Ulrich Zwingli, the first reformer in Zurich, and John Calvin of Geneva,....( Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, p.423)
Vance writes (quoting Bangs in his work on Arminius) that Arminius deserves to be classified as an orthodox Dutch Reformed theologian.(p.131, Other Side of Calvinism)
Or is faith the means God uses to bestow His grace on the dead sinner, and thus bring him back to life anew -- God's gift of "grace through faith?"
Is faith an act of man or an act of God? Do we "agree to accept" grace or do we "freely receive" grace? Is Grace of man or God?
Monergism/synergism.
It's not that tough. Ask Rome. They understand. Everyone but the Reformed believe man must do something before you're saved.
God does the "before." We have enough to keep us busy with the "after."
I know there is no 'spiritual limbo' because regeneration does not precede faith.
But in Calvinism it does and it a logical issue that you want to avoid, by emphazing now that it is instantaneous.
Something comes first in salvation either faith or regeneration and the time issue is irrevalant.
We know that salvation occurs in a moment in time.
Yet, logically there is an order, as you Calvinists are constantly harping on.
If your order were correct, the believer would be hovering between the dead Adam and the live Adam, alive yet not saved.
A person cannot be spiritually alive and not saved.
Your order of Regeneration preceding faith is simply a theological impossiblity that the Calvinists want to ignore.
Sanctification takes a lifetime.
Be careful, that sounds very Romanist!
Positional sanctification occurs at the moment of salvation, that is you are union with Christ.
Progressive Sanctification occurs during your Christian walk, this is where Rom.6:16 comes in, yielding to the Holy Spirit.
Finally, there is Ultimate Sanctification when we receive our Resurrection Bodies.
Thus, sanctification occurs in three stages, but salvation occurs in a moment,at the point of accepting Christ as one's savior.
The Holy Spirit then 'baptizes' you and brings you into Christ (1Cor.12)
Why does one man exert his free will to "choose to believe" in Christ while another man exerts his free will to "refuse" Christ? What's the difference within the two men?
Why does one Christian choose to grow up and others never do?
The issue is always what you desire, those who come to Christ desire the truth and those who don't, don't (Jn.3:19-21)
Remember that Christ is drawing all men to him (Jn.12)
Men must reject that drawing to be damned (Jn.16:9)
Also remember that faith is not a work (Rom.4:4-5)
And we are commanded to believe (Jn.6:29) but can claim no credit for doing so (Lk17:10)
Finally, I ordered the book, Swarm of locusts.
Monergism/Synergism is a false issue.
Faith is not a work and thus cannot be viewed as adding anything to salvation.
The real issue is which comes first regeneration or faith, and the Bible says Faith.
As for keeping 'busy' after, what are you doing during your Christian walk.
Are you cooperating with God?
Is God controlling your every thought or are you resisting God when you refuse to yield?
Are you obeying God when you do yield?
Your progressive sanctification smacks of synergism (since you regard faith as a work)
The only alternative is that you are sinning because God will's that you sin and Rom.6:16-18 is just one of those 'facade' verses that is hiding the 'secret will' of God (as Calvin explained 2Pet.3:9 to be, and Spurgeon and Piper explained 1Tim.2:4 to be)
That's not what Paul says.
"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." -- 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5
Amen. Dead is dead. That's the reason Jesus brought Lazarus back to life. He taught in parables, and thus we are Lazarus and can do nothing to save ourselves. Only God saves.
Gnosticism is at the root of all philosophy that denies this and asserts that man has something inherently good inside himself with which to save himself. Pelagius to the max.
That's no answer.
Why does one man DESIRE the truth and another not?
What is the DIFFERENCE in the two men???
It would probably be more accurate to say that Christ died for all men but Atonement is only applied to those who receive it.
Thus, all men are savable, but the Atonement is only effective if accepted.
If one doesn't get under the Blood, then one stands on ones own works (Isa.64:6)
The real issue, one that few Arminians are willing to face, is the Total Depravity of Man. Man is WICKED from day one. He/she is spiritually DEAD as a doornail and needs to be "raised from the dead". This of course flies in the face that man is basically good and needs to make a "decision".
There may Arminians who believe this, but neither Arminius nor Wesley taught it.
Both held that man was totally depraved and needed God's grace to be saved.
The difference is that God's grace is given to all men and some reject it and some do not.
This rejection comes can come at various stages, at the recognition of God (Rom.1, Ps.19) or upon hearing of the Gospel (Jn.3:36)
Scripture says time and again you must be born again. Time and again God comes to people, not the other way around. Time and again the Bible says faith is a gift from God, not self manufactured. Time and again the Bible says we are "dead", yet we believe we are capable of "doing something". Time and again the Bible says our hearts are wicked and there is no one that does what is right, yet we think things to the contrary.
Well, both Arminus and Wesley believed faith was a gift of God (I will leave my personal views aside) and believed that faith was given to men but that man had the ability to reject it as well as receive it.
Thus, the differences between them and Calvin was simply the scope of the offer and irresistable grace.
Ofcourse, this then goes back to unconditional vs conditional election.
God has to regenerate the dead heart. God has to come to us and make Himself known like He did with Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Saul, David, Jeremiah, John, Peter, Paul, Cornelius, and on and on and on. And when God has regenerated the heart people dropped what they're doing and followed. This isn't only Biblical examples but I've heard countless testimonies saying the same thing that, "I was at a Billy Graham meeting and something moved me to know that I was a sinner and needed a savior....". DUH!
Adding light into a dead heart is not regeneration.
The Calvin view is that spiritual death means total absence of any will.
The will is there, but it needs light to show it an alternative to the darkness of Satan (2Cor.4:4)
Once that light is given (the Gospel), then the individual can believe the words or not.
If he rejects the Gospel, he is still an unbeliever and remains in darkness.
If he believes, he then becomes regenerate and is born again.
Regeneration is rebirth as when the world is regenerated when Christ returns (Matt.19:28)
What is really appalling to Arminians is to think that God regenerates the heart to follow Him. Yet this is what our Lord Jesus told Nicodemus needed to be done; "You must be BORN again." and Nicodemus wasn't in a position to rebirth himself. To believe one makes some sort of "intellectual" decision is to essentially deny the workings of the Holy Spirit.
What the Arminians reject (classical Arminians) is that God would choose some and not others with no objective reason.
A man is born again when the words of the Gospel take hold in his soul and he receives them as such,
Being born again not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever (1Pe.1:23)
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing cometh by the word of God.(Rom.10:17)
There is not one verse in scripure that says that man is regenerated before he believes.
As far as Perseverance of the Saints goes, I've always felt that if God would take the trouble to save a wretched sinner like me, when I was in the depths of depravity, why would He not help me in my walk now that He's begun a "good work" in me?
Well, that is very true, but it is not 'perserverance of the saints' but the perserverance of God.
You are eternally secure once you are born again because He will finish the good work He has started (Phil.1:6) and nothing can separate you from his love (Rom.8:38-39), but it has nothing to do with you perservering, it has to do with the fact that God has sealed you for the day of Redemption, (Eph.4:30) no matter what you do (1Jn.5)
What is the difference between Christians?
Why do some grow and other do not?
Is one smarter, stronger, more intelligent, more pious, richer, etc. than the other?
Something inherently inside them has to account for the difference between the two men's free will choices.
What is it?
Why did you, ftd, use your free will to "open the door" to Christ when your neighbor used his free will to ignore His "knocking?"
And yet that's not what Scripture says. Some vessels are made for wrath.
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou make me thus? Or hath no the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called." -- Romans 9:20-24
What makes two Christians different?
Why do some go onto meat and others remain babes on milk?
Oh, no, the dreaded Romans 9:20!
The final line of defense of Calvinism!
Good verse.
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