Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
Surely Captain Rowan, USN, knew full well that "Captain" Fox was not a military officer. Commander Rowan, USN, reported to Commander Gillis as the Senior Officer Present. He documented that he did not report to the civilian "Captain."
I am not riled at all. I am merely determined to document your ignorance.
Commander Rowan of the USS Pawnee had reported in 1861:
At this time the Pocahontas came in, and her commander [nc - Commander Gillis], at my request, came on board this ship and joined our council. I related to him all the circumstances and what preparations we had made for the purpose of throwing provisions into the fort, and, delivering the copies of orders I had received, I placed myself under his order as senior officer present.
You just admitted he was a captain, what are you getting so mad about?
I am not riled at all. I am merely determined to document your ignorance.
You sure are doing a lot of namecalling against captain Fox for a guy that's not riled. lol
So you admit that they exist. Good.
They are and were indeed. Don't expect to convince the pet lunatic of that though (one of his alter egos might hit the abuse button and get your response pulled for simply noting his Hinkley-esque obsessions on this forum over a certain ex POW).
Marines exist, there's no doubt. They do not, and have never, performed the task which you describe. Had he desired Marines, he probably would have used the word Marines. You are fundamentally confused about something; the letter is talking about sailors who would man shipboard guns - crew serviced weapons, not shoulder-fired. These are the men who would be needed to shoot their way past the shore batteries to get to Sumter.
Had they done it, odds are the public would not have stomped thier feet and screamed, "It's ours, ours ours ours, and we want it back." The events surrounding Sumter appear very carefully crafted. It darned near takes a program to keep track of who's shafting who.
The letter is clear. He needed the sailors to get the provisions to shore. If all he needed were the Powhatan's guns, he would've simply said he needed the Powhatan, not "300 sailors". What's the use of sending the Powhatan if you're not going to send sailors to man the guns? Your theory is not logical.
Had they done it, odds are the public would not have stomped thier feet and screamed, "It's ours, ours ours ours, and we want it back." The events surrounding Sumter appear very carefully crafted. It darned near takes a program to keep track of who's shafting who.
What's so complex about it? We wanted to send provisions to shore, Lincoln knew that as soon as he tried the Confederates would attack so he sent them to Florida instead. Better to do it that way than to lose both.
Read the Declarations of Secession if you want to see facts.
And the Constitution is something for THEIR guy in power to wipe his butt with, to their cheers. I doubt that ONE of them has read the Constitution with ANY degree of comprehension.
It's clear the secessionists certainly didn't read it clear enough.
And these are the ones you and I protected for all those years.
If all you're going to do is complain, I wish you would've stayed home.
My theory? This whole thing started because you claimed the "guns" were for the "men."
The "guns" were for the gunboats. The "men" were for the "guns," not the other way around as you claimed. Neither the "men" nor the "guns" were at Sumter. It does seem that we can drop this, as you now appear to understand. I'm glad that we were able to enlighten you in this matter.
What's so complex about it? We wanted to send provisions to shore, Lincoln knew that as soon as he tried the Confederates would attack so he sent them to Florida instead. Better to do it that way than to lose both.
Then why send the other ships, knowing that they could do nothing? nolu chan has provided evidence that the men were not lacking in supplies, and even refused the idea of a resupply from anyone but the merchants of Charleston. Once again, it appears to be your theory which doesn't pass the sniff test.
I said the "arms" looked like they were for the men. What "arms" consisted of, I don't know.
The "guns" were for the gunboats. The "men" were for the "guns," not the other way around as you claimed.
That's not logical. The letter is clear that the captain needed 300 men to get the provisions to shore. If all he needed were the Powhatan's guns, he would've simply said he needed the Powhatan, instead he said he needed "300 sailors". It's assumed that if you're going to send a gunboat that you're going to send men to man the ships big guns, a captain of another ship wouldn't specifically request men to man the guns on the requested ship. Why send a gunboat if you're not going to send men to men the ship's big guns? Amazing the way you neoconfederates will twist things and go against common sense to support your illogical theories.
Neither the "men" nor the "guns" were at Sumter. It does seem that we can drop this, as you now appear to understand. I'm glad that we were able to enlighten you in this matter.
So, the ship was sent elsewhere. Why was that a big deal? Turned out to be a smart move by Lincoln since the Confederacy attacked whether the Powhatan was there or not.
Then why send the other ships, knowing that they could do nothing?
Keep them busy, maybe. The same way we faked an attack somewhere else on D-Day.
nolu chan has provided evidence that the men were not lacking in supplies, and even refused the idea of a resupply from anyone but the merchants of Charleston.
He has? The men were US troops. Once the outlaws rebelled, these troops should've been supplied by our government, not the enemy.
Once again, it appears to be your theory which doesn't pass the sniff test.
And you believe that a captain would ask for a ship and also list the men to man the ships guns. That's like requesting a carrier today, and saying "by the way, send 5000 men with the carrier to run the ship and launch the planes". Hilarious.
Lucy Shelton Stewart, winner of the 1930 Dingbat Award.
I ["Fleet Admiral" Fox] proposed to anchor three small men-of-war off the entrance to the Swash Channel as a safe base of operations against any naval attack from the enemy, the soldiers and provisions to be carried to the Charleston bar in the Collins steamer Baltic, all the provisions and munitions to be put up in portable packages easily handled by one man, the Baltic to carry 300 extra sailors and a sufficient number of armed launches to land all the troops at Fort Sumter in one night.
On paper, the "fighting sailors" were to have supplies [remaining shipboard] for one month. The soldiers were to be landed with supplies for a year. All the provisions and munitions were to be put in portable packages easily handled by one man. One man cannot carry a year's worth of his own provisions. The 300 "fighting sailors" were needed to act as pack mules to carry the hundreds of portable packages of provisions, each designed to be handled by one man.
In reality, nobody was deluded enough to make the attempt. They could have landed a thousand soldiers with a hundred years supplies and it would have made no difference. The fort was reduced to a smoldering ruin in two days. The only thing they really would have needed was two days rations and body bags.
As a military mission, it was impossible as all the army officers had said. Even had the purported mission, such as it was, succeeded in doing what it purported to do, the soldiers reaching the fort would have been surrounded by the batteries observed on April 14 by Commander Rowan:
April 14. ... At 1 p. m. observed the American flag flying over Fort Sumter. At 2 a salute of fifty guns was fired and the flag was then hauled down. At 4 p. m., the so called Confederate flag, similar to the one flying over Fort Moultrie during the attack on Major Anderson, was hoisted on Fort Sumter amid a general fire from all the forts and batteries. During the firing in honor of what is called the Confederate flag on Fort Sumter, took the bearings of the different batteries on Morris Island and Sullivan's Island, several of which had hitherto been unnoticed.
North side Sullivan's Island:
Battery bearing N.
Battery bearing N. W. by N.
Battery bearing N. W.
Battery bearing N. W. 1/2 W. Cumming's Point, W. 1/2 S.
Fort Sumter, W. 3/4 N. Extreme front of Morris Island:
Battery bearing S. W. 1/2 W.
Battery bearing S. W. by W. 1/4 W.
Battery bearing S. W. by W. 1/2 W.
Battery bearing W. S. W. 1/2 W.
Battery bearing W. S. W.
On Page 253, Commander Rowan had noted that "Fort Moultrie, Cumming's Point, Fort Johnson, and the sand and floating batteries were all playing on Fort Sumter."
On Page 252, Commander Gillis, the Senior Officer Present, noted, "Found the fort a complete wreck, the fire not yet all extinguished. Its shattered battlements, its tottering walls, presented the appearance of an old ruin."
The purported mission was to take what they could carry on their backs to an indefensible position that could barely hold out 48 hours before being demolished.
They were to be in a fort on a man-made island in the harbor. Clearly, they were to occupy the low ground and have no means of retreat or movement. Unless the "portable packages easily handled by one man" included portable rocket launchers, it is unclear how the additional men could have added to the defensive capability of the fort. The fort was designed to shoot at and sink ships. It could not sink the shore batteries.
Groceries were not needed. Adding soldiers could only add targets and start the shelling.
These "fighting sailors" were assisted by Viking gunships armed with the original 6th Century AD Viking Tomahawk missile.
The effort was only made possible by the dedication of #3Brigade, Remington Raiders.
Early efforts were met with limited success due to the small carrying capacity of the reptiles, who could only support one pilot hand-carrying a 2000 pound GBU-30 (JDAM).
Unfortunately, these early pilots did not have sophisticated inertial nav systems, and had to follow Powhatan. She was lost in a fog and they wandered out to sea, sparking the mystery of the Bermuda Triangle which exists to this very day.
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