Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
If everyone read the constitution on their own, we'd end up with a nation of people like you. The constitution says what it says, the laws by which the acts of the States are proven were written, and also say what they said. Your claim that secession is somehow "different" is the only thing left to be proven.
Have at it.
Where does it say that? I saw that the ship's men needed arms because they expected to be attacked by Confederates, but I don't see where arms were to be delivered. The Confederates had attacked ships before any agreement was made between the Buchanan administration and the rebels, so they had a thing about attacking ships.
Troops were to be landed. No armistice has ever been signed by the president of these United States to the best of my knowledge, yet many have existed. When Lincoln was informed that his orders were in violation of the armistice, he found men willing to carry them out in spite of it. It is tantamount to discovering that GW ordered Sept. 11th to get the country motiviated to war, yet Lincoln is venerated as an Amercian hero.
If there was no signed armistice, then all it was was a truce between the Buchanan administration and the rebels and null and void the moment Buchanan left office. Regardless, it was our property anyway and any president that doesn't allow US troops to defend themselves is derelict.
Get over it.
I didn't post this thread, a neoconfederate did. Maybe you need to tell him to get over it. lol
Rapes by Lee's troops were Ok though, huh?
So you're demanding that the state legislatures allow for the Congress to pass laws regarding "full faith and credit" of their acts, while the acts of the president do not even receive full faith and credit after an election occurs?
Like it or not, the Buchanan administration entered into an armistice between Florida and the United States' federal government.
As usual, you're making stuff up again. Close your mouth and maybe the crap will stop flowing long enough to post a coherent response.
Lee condemned criminal acts by his troops; to the point of prosecution and even execution. Sherman looked the other way, and indeed went out of his way to cover for the criminal acts of his men.
This is your hero.
Judging by this thread, that appears to be preferable. You guys prefer to go by what someone else says the Constitution says and look at what you believe. You mistakee 20 rapes for thousands. You differentiate between a rape by a Union soldier and a rape by one of Lee's soldiers, as if it would matter to the woman. You don't lament slavery. You think that it's OK for states to not follow Article IV. Maybe if you guys would put more trust into your own discernment instead of blindly following the writings of partisans, you minds would develop better judgment so as to not support such improper notions.
The constitution says what it says, the laws by which the acts of the States are proven were written, and also say what they said. Your claim that secession is somehow "different" is the only thing left to be proven. Have at it.
Secession is different than a marriage. When a state secedes, the Congress must decide how to facilitate the departure so that there is no unfairness. When the South seceded, since they didn't let the Congress do it's job, they eneded up stealing property, US supplies, and federal troops were at risk.
It was an act by the legislature.
If there was no signed armistice, it wasn't an act. It was just some sort of truce. The old adage "get it in writing" applies. Regardless, it was our property and Lincoln could do as he wished.
Like it or not, the Buchanan administration entered into an armistice between Florida and the United States' federal government.
Link me to the signed armistice.
Prove that Sherman Okayed rape. How come there were 350 court-martials for rape in the Union armies, if the generals looked the other way? There were no court-martials for rape in the Confederate armies and according to the letter that I linked earlier, a lot of rapists in the Confederate armies weren't even being held accountable. If anyone was ignoring rape, it was the Confederate generals, it would appear.
This is your hero.
He saved thousands of lives, just as Ike and Treuman did.
Sigh. English is a second language eh? "innumerable sources of great atrocities" - multiple source of multiple incidents.
"A number" could be as little as three.
"A number" could be as twenty million.
At least I can count and I don't mistake 20 for "thousands".
ROTF! Over 350 documented courts martial for rape, more for similar incidents charged as conduct unbecoming, numerous other accounts in the official records of multiple rapes not prosecuted.
If Lee could've attacked supplies to win the war, he would've.
"I cannot hope that Heaven will prosper our cause when we are violating its laws. I shall, therefore, carry on the war in Pennsylvania without offending the sanctions of a high civilization and of Christianity."
Gen. Robert E, Lee to Gen. Trimble, 24 Jun 1863.
It must be remembered that we make war only upon armed men, and that we cannot take vengeance for the wrongs our people have suffered without lowering ourselves in the eyes of all whose abhorrence has been excited by the atrocities of our enemies, and offending against Him to whom vengeance belongeth, without whose favor and support our efforts must all prove in vain.Possible traitors should be detained.The commanding general therefore earnestly exhorts the troops to abstain with most scrupulous care from unnecessary or wanton injury to private property, and he enjoins upon all officers to arrest and bring to summary punishment all who shall in any way offend against the orders on this subject.
Gen. Robert E. Lee, General Orders No. 73, 27 Jun 1863.
Failure to PRAY for Caesar Lincoln is treason??? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
You're just mad that we crushed the South's little tyrannist dictators:...slaveowners. At least we didn't try to perpetuate the tyranny of slavery. Death to Tyrants!
The tyrant did die, didn't he? Slavery was LEGAL under the US flag far longer than the Confederate flag. Yankees sailed to Africa to steal/purchase slaves. Yankees perpetuated slavery since our founding!
And some slaves still thought enough of the Confederacy to fight for her, and that just tears y'all up inside ;o)
I do lament the crimes committed by them, I never said otherwise. What is laughable is your reading comprehension. I'll type real s-l-o-w, will that help? Beverly & Thomas Lowry reasearched over 100,000 Union courts martial, and over 5,000 Confederate courts martial and created a databse of all charges. According to their research, there are no recorded Confederate courts martial for rape. Nowhere did I state that such incidents did not exist.
And then what do you know, you rose to the occasion, taking the bait, and set off to provide evidence of such despite a lack of documented courts martials. Iprovided the same from the Official Records. What is then more laugahable, is that you insist that this only pertains to Confederates, and not unionists.
A nearby library - via internet search of it's holdings - was found to have the book in a historical reference section. I took off and drove, only to find they do not have it ;o(
If I can't find one, I might spring for a copy. I can always use a good laugh.
PALEO-Confederate. A thread about a black man that is PROUD of his ancestor, and would have done the same. The indoctrination is failing.
Again, innumerable sources can speak of the same event.
"A number" could be as twenty million.
Being that the American population was 30 million at the time, your estimate is high. Nothing new for a neoconfederate.
ROTF! Over 350 documented courts martial for rape, more for similar incidents charged as conduct unbecoming, numerous other accounts in the official records of multiple rapes not prosecuted.
350 is not "thousands" and the 350 isn't even of Sherman's men, it's for all armies in the whole 4 years of war. That means just a few for Sherman's men.
"I cannot hope that Heaven will prosper our cause when we are violating its laws. I shall, therefore, carry on the war in Pennsylvania without offending the sanctions of a high civilization and of Christianity." Gen. Robert E, Lee to Gen. Trimble, 24 Jun 1863.
Lee didn't have a problem with lawbreakers, the secessionists were lawbreakers. So Ike was a lawbreaker? lol Again, Lee would've attacked supplies if he could've. Where does the law say supplies are not to be attacked.
It must be remembered that we make war only upon armed men, and that we cannot take vengeance for the wrongs our people have suffered without lowering ourselves in the eyes of all whose abhorrence has been excited by the atrocities of our enemies, and offending against Him to whom vengeance belongeth, without whose favor and support our efforts must all prove in vain. The commanding general therefore earnestly exhorts the troops to abstain with most scrupulous care from unnecessary or wanton injury to private property, and he enjoins upon all officers to arrest and bring to summary punishment all who shall in any way offend against the orders on this subject. Gen. Robert E. Lee, General Orders No. 73, 27 Jun 1863.
Then why did he join with the lawbreaking tyrannists?
Possible traitors should be detained. Failure to PRAY for Caesar Lincoln is treason??? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
He wasn't a traitor for not praying for Lincoln, but it was a sign that he could turn into one. If during war, a person shows that he does not support the cause, he could be a traitor.
The tyrant did die, didn't he?
You people are so attractive and even-minded. /sarcasm
Slavery was LEGAL under the US flag far longer than the Confederate flag.
Thanks to Lincoln. He ended slavery in the South. The Confederates vowed to perpetuate it.
Yankees sailed to Africa to steal/purchase slaves. Yankees perpetuated slavery since our founding!
How is it that slavery ended as soo as we beat down the Confederate tyrannists then?
And some slaves still thought enough of the Confederacy to fight for her, and that just tears y'all up inside ;o)
No, I'm aware there are nuts in every crowd. Anyone who fights to keep is own people enslaved is a disgrace.
You implied it by repeated your 0 number without acknowledging that Confederates raped their own women. You are deceptive, but you have no choice since truth is not on your side. And since Confederate soldiers did rape and they were never tried for it, that means that if anyone ignored rape, it was the Confederate generals.
And then what do you know, you rose to the occasion, taking the bait, and set off to provide evidence of such despite a lack of documented courts martials.
Took what bait? You implied that there were no Confederate rapes and I proved you to be a deceptive person, as most neoconfederates are, deceptive and revisionist.
Iprovided the same from the Official Records. What is then more laugahable, is that you insist that this only pertains to Confederates, and not unionists.
What pertains? I never denied there were Union rapes, I'm just trying to get you to support your "thousands" number for Sherman's men. So far, all you have is about 20.
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