The Pelagian Captivity of the Church

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals ^ | R. C. Sproul

[connectthedots]

I think you know that Calvinism neither approves, nor teaches that God approved of the actions of those men.

Edwin Palmer certainly would have maintained that God predestined/foreordained the actions of Hitler and Dahmer and that their actions were part of God's will.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Again, funny how I address posts to Marlowe, and only get direct responses from others. Check your playbooks again. Which one of you is the ventrioquist, and which one the puppet?

In other words your saying "LOOK AT ME MOMMA, I'M A BIG BOY NOW!!! I CAN INSULT REAL GOOD!!!

BigMack

[CCWoody]

***How often does it need to be repeated that the Bible itself does not consider believing to be a work.***

None, thank you. The problem is that Arminian belief, which is according to free will is not Biblical belief at all. True belief is not a work. Arminian free will belief is a work.

There is not a single passage in the Bible which teaches that a man moves from NOT believing in God TO believing in God because of a "free will" choice to switch. True belief is not a light switch, which you can turn off and on.

You either believe it or you don't. You don't simply change your mind unless you have some kind of a mental defect.

That is not how true belief works.

So, yes, Arminian "free will" belief is a work.

True belief, as described by Paul in 2 Co. 4:4, is by a specific act of creation as in the day the LORD said "Let there be light." When that act of creation occurs in the soul of a dead sinner, then, and only, then is a belief not a work of man. It is a work of God.

A blind man doesn't decide that he can see. He is dependent upon the creative act of God for his vision. When, and only when the Lord removes the blindness of hostility in the soul of a dead sinner will he "believe" in his Creator who has just become his ReCreator.

Neither does a man who can now see decide to be blind again. This would be akin to you waking up tomorrow and deciding that the sky was no longer blue. We would think you need a nice vacation somewhere.

This is what you Arminians don't get. The logical order "belief unto regeneration" was condemned a very long time ago as the Pelagian heresy. It denies the deadness of man. This is also why modern day Arminianism is nothing more than a soft sell Pelagianism.

***But there are squawks when someone says: total decree = "God willed Hitler to be the murderer of 6 million Jews."***

That's not the bone of contention and you know it.

It is the wilfull misrepresentation that, according to Calvinism, God approved of Hitler's sins. I know it and you know it. So, please quit misrepresenting it. That would be like you weeing on my shoe and trying to tell me it is raining.

Woody.

[xzins]

It is not a misrepresentation as an argument to a logical endpoint.

Arminian belief is different than when other people believe. That's the first I've heard that one.

In other news, did you see the photo I posted?

[CCWoody]

***It is not a misrepresentation as an argument to a logical endpoint.***

It was not presented as an argument, but a statement of Calvinistic fact that God approved of Hitler's actions. When you Arminians grow up and actually try to present an argument, then, perhaps I'll come and spank your naughty little bottoms. Until then, you can continue to act however you want.

***Arminian belief is different than when other people believe. That's the first I've heard that one.***

When you teach light bulb belief then it is different than Biblical belief.

Woody.

[P-Marlowe]

It was not presented as an argument, but a statement of Calvinistic fact that God approved of Hitler's actions.

If, in fact, God did not approve of the actions of Hitler, then how is it that Hitler was able to do the things he did?

[Alex Murphy]

In other words your saying "LOOK AT ME MOMMA, I'M A BIG BOY NOW!!! I CAN INSULT REAL GOOD!!!

Hey Mack, would you mind putting Becky on the phone? All I'm getting is static on the line.

[CCWoody]

***If, in fact, God did not approve of the actions of Hitler, then how is it that Hitler was able to do the things he did?***

Why don't you impeach your own theology with that statement.

Woody.

[xzins]

You are correct.

As taught in modern calvinism, Hitler was not able to do what He did without God's own design and approval.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Only fools and democrats would continue to post to you.

BigMack

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I never said that, come on my 12 neighbor can spin better than that. I said it ain't a true IFBC if it accepts Calvinism. BigMack

Exactly what "Fundamentals" do these "true" Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches uphold, BigMack?

• Could it be, perhaps, "The Five Fundamentals" which were propounded by the 1910 General Assembly of the (then still Calvinistic) Presbyterian Church? (the inerrancy of the Bible, the virgin birth of Christ, His substitutional atonement, Christ's bodily resurrection, and the authenticity of miracles)
• The theology of the twelve-volume paperback series "The Fundamentals" published 1910-1915 at a personal cost of $300,000 by Calvinist Presbyterian brothers Lyman and Milton Stewart?
• The theology which was originally known as "The Princeton Theology" for years before it eventually became known as "Fundamentalism" in 1920-22, and which was most ably defended by Calvinist Presbyterian Prof. J. Gresham Machen, aka "Dr. Fundamentalist" to his peers and enemies?

If not for Calvinists, the IFBC's would just be IBC's -- like the Root Beer, except without the Root. For it was exactly the Calvinists who propounded, codified, financed, and published "The Fundamentals" which launched the Fundamentalist movement in the first place!!

And then, as is usual throughout the history of Protestantism -- along prance some johnny-come-lately Arminians who hitch a ride after the hard intellectual and financial ground-work has been done by Calvinist Presbyterians and Baptists, only to then call their Calvinist Forefathers the "heretics" whilst claiming for themselves the credit for what their Calvinist Forefathers hath wrought!!

---

• Q: How does one locate an Arminian Baptist bearing Good Fruit?

• A: Just wait behind the Calvinist Baptist orchard after cover of darkness, and you'll usually find one sneaking out with a basket-full just after midnight.

[Wrigley]

So, Mack, are you the fool? Or the democrat?

[Vernon]

Twisting and turning...?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Exactly what "Fundamentals" do these "true" Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches uphold, BigMack?

You already asked and answered that in the only way a Calvinist can, smug, and prideful.

Thanks for playing.

BigMack

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You already asked and answered that in the only way a Calvinist can, smug, and prideful. Thanks for playing. BigMack

Alright... since you claim that "true" Fundamental Baptists reject Calvinism (nothing smug or prideful about that assertion, natch)...

Please identify the "Five Fundamentals", and the twelve-volume series "The Fundamentals", which were NOT propounded, codified, financed, and published... by Calvinists.

We'll be waiting.... and thanks for playing.

OP

[Vernon]

So, yes, Arminian "free will" belief is a work.

Huh? What am I missing, xzins? I thought your statement was brief, concise, and to the point.

[CCWoody]

***Huh? What am I missing, xzins? I thought your statement was brief, concise, and to the point.***

So did I about mine. Yet, you and xzins both ignored my citation and explaination of 2 Corinthians 4:4.

What am I missing?

Oh, yeah, the part where you Arminians can't explain away a Scripture so you just ignore it.

Ok, carry on!

Woody.

P.S. Perhaps now would be a good time for you Arminians to launch into yet another disguisting perversion of what we Calvinists believe just to try and yank our chains and divert attention away from the fact that you ignore or misrepresent scriptures.

Or, better yet, try and get my post yanked. That ought to make you feel better too.

Those bad old Calvinists.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Huh? What am I missing, xzins? I thought your statement was brief, concise, and to the point.

Any Action of Will, is necessarily a Work. Work = Action, Action = Work.

Biblical Belief does not involve an Action of Will; rather, Belief is created in the Elect by the monergistic action of the Spirit. Belief then results in Good Works, involving actions of Will; but is not itself a Willed Choice.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

FWIW, I'm working on the "Five Fundamentals for the Fortress of Solitude" while I post. I'll try to have it up as a thread tonight, for commentary.

[drstevej]

That set of The Fundamentals (4 volumes in my edition) has some great articles. They are available (list of articles and some articles) online here:

http://www.xmission.com/~fidelis/

Maybe a series of threads highlighting some of these articles is needed.