Again, I am not sure if you are using terms the same way I am. Rather than continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again, simply tell me if you understand the terms in some different manner from what I have explained by explaining the process of an non-Christian coming to regeneration, sanctification, and justification.

We both agree it begins with grace, but I am not really sure what you believe after that. Without that understanding, which I don't wish to presume, I really can't take this any further.

Again, I am not sure if you are using terms the same way I am. Rather than continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again, simply tell me if you understand the terms in some different manner from what I have explained by explaining the process of an non-Christian coming to regeneration, sanctification, and justification. We both agree it begins with grace, but I am not really sure what you believe after that. Without that understanding, which I don't wish to presume, I really can't take this any further.

Au contraire -- it is necessary to properly define the condition of Fallen Man's state of Spiritual Death, before we can proceed to discussions of the Remedy therefore.

It's a simple matter of logical order, Herm. If Man is to be Born Again out from his native condition of Spiritual Death, we must first define the condition of Spiritual Death.

So, back to #657 -- True, or False?

"I see no reason to distinguish between "Abraham's Bosom" and "Paradise" and "the Third Heaven"; I tend to believe that these are all the same location (and Lazarus had already entered "Abraham's Bosom" while Jesus was incarnate, whereas the Rich Man had already entered Hell)."

Prior to Christ's descent to the dead, all the dead went to sheol (hades gk, purgatorio ltn) or gehenna (gehenna gk, inferno ltn).

The OT dead were not able to enter heaven because they had not been made a new creation or regenerated by making an act of faith in Christ. Hence they were prisoners of sheol until such time as Christ came to preach the gospel to them:

1 Ptr 3,18 "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
19 IN WHICH ALSO COMING HE PREACHED TO THOSE SPIRITS THAT WERE IN PRISON:
20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him."

Abraham's bosom and "paradise" equate to the upper reaches of sheol where souls are comforted rather than tormented, but no one could enter heaven until such time as Christ "dying destroyed death" and completed his exodus when He ascended to heaven.

If the OT saints were able to enter heaven before they had been redeemed by Christ, then there was never any need for Christ. We believe that salvation is by Christ alone - no-one has the Father unless they first have the Son.

The Bible, however, makes it clear that while he is still Spiritually Dead, a man responds to Grace with spiritual hatred, not Spiritual Good.

False.

In your thesis, man's will is more powerful than God's will!

This thesis makes the prompting of any intial grace impossible, because man's will under this proposition always overrides God's grace; you state: "while he is still Spiritually Dead, a man responds to Grace with spiritual hatred". Therefore, any regeneration by grace becomes impossible, since it is a work of grace, which you state will always be overridden by man's evil will. Therefore, logically, regeneration must be posited to come from somewhere else besides God. Or alternatively, we must reject the thesis that an unregenerated man "always" rejects grace.

I do not, however, that your thesis does dovetail nicely with the "salvation by works" that RnMomof7 once preached here on the Religion Forum, and to which neither you nor her ever retracted or rejected (you were pinged):

"The saved choose to serve Christ and not sinful men ... But God ordains no works for the unregenerate. There is nothing he can do to please God , except repent and believe and there are no works that open heavens gate." THE TRUE CHURCH, Post 358

Got that? "The saved choose to serve Christ and not sinful men ... There is nothing [the unregenerate] can do to please God , except repent and believe ..."

This would work with your thesis - since unregenerate man always rejects divine grace, his regeneration must proceed from himself (thus RnMomof7's statement that he can do nothing "to please God except repent and believe"), thus enabling him to accept grace. That sounds exactly like what I've always understood Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism to be.

Catholics, following St. Augustine and many others, believe that God's grace can conquer any and all human wills and make them inevitably and ineffably choose rightly - the victrix delectatio. Christ chooses us and makes us to freely but inevitably choose Him.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draw him, ... It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from Him comes to Me. " (St. John 6.44-45)

That is the process of coming to God - the Father draws us by teaching and we cooperate by learning from Him, which enables us to come to Christ. Therefore, we "learned" from the Father (a spiritually good work) before we came to Christ. It says it quite explicitly in that order in Holy Scripture above:

Everyone who
(1) listens to my Father and
(2) learns from Him
(3) comes to Me.

Same order as seen in Acts 2.38, and in Acts 10. God gives us grace to enable us to do rightly in order to come to Him. God teaches, we repent and believe, God regenerates and sanctifies.

There is a very Catholic prayer some of us say every day which perfectly captures this true Augustinian insight into predestination, grace, and free will:

Direct, we beseech you, O Lord, our actions by your holy inspirations, and further them on by your gracious assistance, that every prayer and work of ours may always begin with you, and through you be happily completed. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

The problem seems to me that you attribute a paucity of power to the omnipotent God, and grotesquely exaggerate the power of the will of sinful man. We believe for all men that: God directs, man acts. God's inspirations of grace are sufficient to make man choose to do right.

"This thesis makes the prompting of any intial grace impossible, because man's will under this proposition always overrides God's grace; you state: "while he is still Spiritually Dead, a man responds to Grace with spiritual hatred". Therefore, any regeneration by grace becomes impossible, since it is a work of grace, which you state will always be overridden by man's evil will."

Come, come, Hermann - you're not playing by the rules here. Have you forgotten the basic premise which you should be starting from?:

Total Depravity
U
L
I
P

Didn't you know that because total depravity has been infallibly defined since the XVIth century, grace MUST therefore be Irresistible? (sarcasm off)

Irresistible of course until it pertains to the grace given to Peter's successor or the indefectable Church - then mankind has more than adequate will to resist God's grace and providence!

"The problem seems to me that you attribute a paucity of power to the omnipotent God, and grotesquely exaggerate the power of the will of sinful man."

There in a nutshell you have the bankruptcy of the Calvinist system - the power of fallen man's will over the weakness of God's grace. The only answer for them is to annihilate man's will in order that God may become powerful enough to save him. Who needs synergy when automata will do?

Contentious or contending?

Philippians 1:27-28
27. Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
28. without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved--and that by God.

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

This means that there will NOT be anything NEW from Muslims or any other group: we got it ALL at that time and we STILL have it all.

Well........

we KNOW it wasn't RESTORNU

It's a SIGN!!

Moderator: pretend you work for the NM highway Dept and change this number to 491

False. In your thesis, man's will is more powerful than God's will!

Nope. According to the Bible, it's not a question of Man's Will being more powerful than God's Will, but simply a question of Man being Spiritually Dead until such time as he is made Spiritually Alive.... Just as Lazarus was dead, until Jesus caused him to be raised (again) to life.

This thesis makes the prompting of any intial grace impossible, because man's will under this proposition always overrides God's grace; you state: "while he is still Spiritually Dead, a man responds to Grace with spiritual hatred". Therefore, any regeneration by grace becomes impossible, since it is a work of grace, which you state will always be overridden by man's evil will.

On the contrary... Regeneration by Grace is possible exactly because God does not consult Man's Free Will in His action of Regeneration.

It is True that a Spiritually Dead Man will, if offered a choice, ALWAYS reject Grace -- just as is proven by the ample Scriptural citations which I have produced. But when God regenerates a Man, He does not violate the Man's free will; He doesn't even bother asking permission of the Man's free will at all... God monergistically revivifies the Man's spirit, at which point the Man freely wills to Love God, for that is now what he wants to do.

Again, it was not impossible for Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead; but Lazarus' free will was certainly not consulted on the matter. Jesus made him alive, and that was that.

666 posted on 12/19/2003 2:30:12 PM PST by Elsie ~~ It's a SIGN!!

Of what... that you're Nero Caesar?

Wow, I had no idea...

Again, it was not impossible for Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead; but Lazarus' free will was certainly not consulted on the matter. Jesus made him alive, and that was that. ~~ OP

Oh, by the way -- just thought of another example!!

John the Baptist, who was surely conceived in spiritual death (as are we all), was regenerated by God into Spiritual Life even while yet in his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)

God did not "ask John's free will" for consent to regenerate him; He simply did it.

AND GIVEN that it would be double-minded of God, to Regenerate John without asking consent of his free will and yet to demand of other men that they give their consent of free will, and we know that God is not double-minded...
THEREFORE we must conclude that God never demands the of Man the consent of his Free Will in Regeneration, and always Regenerates His Elect without consulting their Free Will, just as He did not consult the Free Will of John the Baptist but regenerated him even in the womb.

"Again, it was not impossible for Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead; but Lazarus' free will was certainly not consulted on the matter. Jesus made him alive, and that was that. ~~ OP"

Where does scripture say that Lazarus was regenerated when Jesus raised him from the dead? NOWHERE!!!

Jesus re-animated a corpse, and Lazarus was still subject to death after this resurrection. There is not a trace of indication anywhere that Lazarus was also regenerated at this point. He did of course subsequently die and his eternal fate was determined by his faith in and baptism into Christ - not by the fact that he was the beneficiary of one of our Lord's miracles during His earthly ministry.

"John the Baptist, who was surely conceived in spiritual death (as are we all), was regenerated by God into Spiritual Life even while yet in his mother's womb."

Again you are reading into the text what is just not there - it speaks nothing of his regeneration! He is anointed by the Holy Spirit just like the other OT prophets, but it is only the One who is to come after him that is able to BAPTISE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT UNTO REGENERATION - and that is only after He destroys death and pours out the water of baptism and blood of the eucharist from His heart on the cross.

John dances before the new ark just as David danced before the old ark, but for neither of them does that constitute regeneration. There is no regeneration in Christ until after Pentecost - only shadows and figures of it exist before then.

Where does scripture say that Lazarus was regenerated when Jesus raised him from the dead? NOWHERE!!! Jesus re-animated a corpse, and Lazarus was still subject to death after this resurrection. There is not a trace of indication anywhere that Lazarus was also regenerated at this point. He did of course subsequently die and his eternal fate was determined by his faith in and baptism into Christ - not by the fact that he was the beneficiary of one of our Lord's miracles during His earthly ministry.

The point is, God does not ask a corpse to give the permission of free will when He creates life in that corpse. Man, by nature, is a spiritual corpse (Ephesians 2:1), and God does not consult permission of his free will when He creates Spiritual Life in the man. God simply raises the Man to Spiritual Life, purely of His own will.

Again you are reading into the text what is just not there - it speaks nothing of his regeneration! He is anointed by the Holy Spirit just like the other OT prophets, but it is only the One who is to come after him that is able to BAPTISE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT UNTO REGENERATION - and that is only after He destroys death and pours out the water of baptism and blood of the eucharist from His heart on the cross. John dances before the new ark just as David danced before the old ark, but for neither of them does that constitute regeneration. There is no regeneration in Christ until after Pentecost - only shadows and figures of it exist before then.

Alright, I'll not use the term "regeneration" if you like. Let me put it this way: while John the Baptist was conceived in Spiritual Death (as are we all), God raised him to Spiritual Life while he was yet in the womb, without procuring the consent of his free will.

All men are born Spiritually Dead, and God never procures the consent of a Man's Free Will before monergistically raising that Man to Spiritual Life. The Man, being Spiritually Dead, would ALWAYS reject God (that is what Spiritually Dead men do), if God were to ask the fellow's consent on the matter; however, the raising to Spiritual Life is not actually a subject on which God consults with the Man's will at all.

There in a nutshell you have the bankruptcy of the Calvinist system - the power of fallen man's will over the weakness of God's grace. The only answer for them is to annihilate man's will in order that God may become powerful enough to save him. Who needs synergy when automata will do?

This is frankly wrong. God does not overthrow, violate, or annihilate a man's Free Will in any way when He raises a man to Spiritual Life. He simply does not consult with the man's Free Will on the matter, as is His prerogative.

There in a nutshell you have the bankruptcy of the Calvinist system - the power of fallen man's will over the weakness of God's grace

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

That is the passage that came to mind when I read this comment of yours. There is nothing about man's will that has any power. Man's will is contingent on the existance of man. Man's existance is contingent on the purpose of God.

The only answer for them is to annihilate man's will

You are the one arguing against Scripture. Man's will has always striven after evil and evil continually. Adding power to man's will only makes him pursue evil with even more vigor. According to Jeremiah (17:9) "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" So what measure of power given or taken will cause the will to act differently? Your whole argument that man's will must be "annihilated" is bogus and doesn't address the issue, for man's will has absolutely no desire to seek after God or His righteousness.

...in order that God may become powerful enough to save him.

Here is a rare insight into your true thoughts about God. From this raw admission, you sincerely believe that God is weak, impotent, and pines away desperately hoping that man will use his power to fulfill God's hopes and felt needs. From these words here, you have a supposition that God is not omnipotent, but "may become powerful enough" through man's input. This is some of the most sick and depraved things I have ever heard a person say about God. Not surprising though, this comes from a person who believes in the apostate American Religion.

And for our bonus blasphemous statement:

Who needs synergy when automata will do?

That is a very interesting admission on your part. Synergy is the interaction of two agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater then the sum of their individual effects.. Clearly you hate God and wish to lower Him to that of a dependant being - His Will dependant and made complete by the work of man. Here is what the prophet Isaiah reported on God's atttitude and thoughts regarding His power and omnipotence:

Isa 46:10-11 Dclaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Do you see any requirement that man provide input, advice, or a measure of effort? Rather, the "man from a far country" drops what hs is doing and "executes [the LORD's] counsel" only because God has, according to His pleasure, decreed that it should come to pass.

Your religious "system" in a nutshell:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

On the contrary... Regeneration by Grace is possible exactly because God does not consult Man's Free Will in His action of Regeneration.

But when God regenerates a Man, He does not violate the Man's free will; He doesn't even bother asking permission of the Man's free will at all... God monergistically revivifies the Man's spirit, at which point the Man freely wills to Love God, for that is now what he wants to do.

Thank you for differentiating yourself from Catholics (at last!).

If regeneration is done by God without consultation, and without regeneration a man is spiritually dead and ends up in hell, its clear that it is God's fault that anyone perishes, since He withheld the necessary means for their eternal life from them, which they could never have hoped to obtain on their own. Sure, their sins might have sent them there, but even if they sinned not, they would surely die, since they were absent spiritual life or any hope of it in your system of grace. They were damned and could do naught else, and salvation was never within their grasp, because you preach a salvation done against their will, and a God who offers them not a single drop of grace, with apologies to Bishop Cornelius Jansen(*).

This is the ridiculous hateful God of Calvinism we are all familiar with - the God who loves some, but not all of His creatures, the God who callously creates men for damnation as a kindling for the fires of hell. This is what was clearly condemned at the Council of Orange. "We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema."

So to you Calvinists who believe this tripe OP is spouting here I repeat what the Church at Orange said. ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA MARANATHA!

(*) A famous ecstatic quote of this psuedo-Catholic was "Not one drop of grace for the pagans!" (Augustinus, vol. III, chs. 5-8)

John the Baptist, who was surely conceived in spiritual death (as are we all), was regenerated by God into Spiritual Life even while yet in his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)

Yes, just like what happens in infant Baptism. I wasn't consulted about my Baptism either. Of course, infants don't have an active free will. Adults and young children do, and the topic we are discussing pertains to them.

AND GIVEN that it would be double-minded of God, to Regenerate John without asking consent of his free will and yet to demand of other men that they give their consent of free will, and we know that God is not double-minded...

Why is that double-minded? Sounds rather ipse dixit-ish. Was it double minded of God to ask Abraham to have himself circumcised as an adult, and Isaac to be circumcised as an infant when he could not consent? God demands that when men come to the use of reason that all men make acts of the will concerning faith, hope, love, and contrition.

THEREFORE we must conclude that God never demands the of Man the consent of his Free Will in Regeneration, and always Regenerates His Elect without consulting their Free Will, just as He did not consult the Free Will of John the Baptist but regenerated him even in the womb.

If you start with a false theorem (A is double minded because I said so), its easy to draw such a false conclusion as you do above.

I don't wish to wait until the 12th of Never for you to discuss the points I made about regeneration being associated with a washing in Titus 3 and John 3, and about coming to Christ requiring an act of the human will in John 6.44-45. If you can't address the instances where the Bible actually discusses regeneration, there is little point in carrying things further.

Last aside - given what you've finally explained in part here (you still have yet to provide any explanation of regeneration and its rleation to sanctification in what you mean by these words), I would have to reject your assertion that Thomism and Augustinianism are "monergistic" like Calvinism and Molinism is "synergistic". Every Catholic system is "synergistic" because that is a dogma of the Church - man must freely choose to believe, and the ability for him to so chose is given by God. God proposes, man disposes.

monergism and synergism are not Catholic terms. They are polemical categories intended to prove correct the putative pure doctrine of the reformers vs the corrupt Catholic Church ect.

Search "The Sources of Catholic Dogma," the "Catechism," the "Catholic Encyclopedia," Papal Encyclicals, the Documents of Ecumenical Councils (I posted the pertinent ones from Trent)and one will not find those words used nor will one find anything to indicate Protestants correctly understand Christian Doctrine when it comes to Grace (just the opposite, in fact)- hence the polemical, binary, right or wrong, black or white, "monergism" vs "synergism" dilemma of the false alternatives.

Cast that way, that is an error I might have embraced had God not granted me the Grace to be born into a Catholic family.

Golly.... there's a whole LOT of 'free will' goin' on here!!!!

Deuteronomy 1:13
Choose some wise, understanding and respected men from each of your tribes, and I will set them over you."

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
19. This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
20. and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Joshua 3:12
Now then, choose twelve men from the tribes of Israel, one from each tribe.

Joshua 4:2-3
2. "Choose twelve men from among the people, one from each tribe,
3. and tell them to take up twelve stones from the middle of the Jordan from right where the priests stood and to carry them over with you and put them down at the place where you stay tonight."

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

2 Samuel 24:12
"Go and tell David, `This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'"

Proverbs 1:29-31
29. Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD,
30. since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke,
31. they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.

Proverbs 3:31-32
31. Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways,
32. for the LORD detests a perverse man but takes the upright into his confidence.

Proverbs 16:16
How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver!

Isaiah 7:15-16
15. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.

16. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Isaiah 56:4-5
4. For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--
5. to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.

John 7:17
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Acts 6:3-4
3. Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
4. and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

1 Peter 4:3
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

Job 34:33
Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent? You must decide, not I; so tell me what you know.

Matthew 7:13-14
13. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Acts 3:23
Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.' (Choose?)

Acts 13:10
"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? (What??? God's absolute will: being changed???)

Romans 2:6
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." (except for you dudes I never called to begin with)

Romans 8:13-14
13. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
14. because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (led: not controlled)

Romans 11:19-23
19. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
20. Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
23. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (choice?)

Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" (except for you dudes I never called to begin with)

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. (Hey LORD!!! It ain't workin'!!!)

1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

Golly.... there's a whole LOT of 'free will' goin' on here!!!!

I don't deny Free Will. I wholly affirm the fact of Free Will.

So... you were saying?

Some in this thread seem to think that...

1. It exists, but....
2. God's will trumps it every time...

It appears to me that would negate free will on Man's part.

Or, a theological Chicken/Egg question.