Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam...

drstevej (Pope Piel I)

[drstevej]

Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam...

Arise (some mss read Swarm), O Calvinists, and plead your cause. The doctrines of grace are mightily assailed by those who would proclaim with their father, “I will be like the Most High.” Set forth the biblical case for a sovereign God who is jealous for His glory. Disallow through disputation (and lampooning when needed) the damnable errors of those who have refashioned the great sola doctrines into a salvation-helper gospel that exalts the fallen will of man.

From every corner, in every thread exalt the right of God to do whatsoever He pleaseth. Be not dismayed by persistent anthropocentric rantings. Blessed are you when they revile you for the sake of the truth. Happy are ye when the Servetus card is played and the strawmen are paraded before you for He who is enthroned in heaven reigns.

– Pope Piel I, Thread Pope

[drstevej]

Sorry, Charlie.

[Dr Warmoose]

I had a college class called Christian Thought, in which the idea was relayed that God is...perfectly loving...

I can understand what it is to be perfectly holy, but can one even come up with a useful definition of what is meant by being "perfectly loving"?

Would those reprobates experiencing the joy of eternal torment burning in hell agree with this defintion of "perfectly loving"?

[lockeliberty]

Chapter III. What greater incentives Christians have, more than the heathen, to love God

The faithful know how much need they have of Jesus and Him crucified; but though they wonder and rejoice at the ineffable love made manifest in Him, they are not daunted at having no more than their own poor souls to give in return for such great and condescending charity. They love all the more, because they know themselves to be loved so exceedingly; but to whom little is given the same loveth little (Luke 7:47). Neither Jew nor pagan feels the pangs of love as doth the Church, which saith, 'Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples; for I am sick of love' (Cant. 2:5). She beholds King Solomon, with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals; she sees the Sole-begotten of the Father bearing the heavy burden of His Cross; she sees the Lord of all power and might bruised and spat upon, the Author of life and glory transfixed with nails, smitten by the lance, overwhelmed with mockery, and at last laying down His precious life for His friends. Contemplating this the sword of love pierces through her own soul also and she cried aloud, 'Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples; for I am sick of love.' The fruits which the Spouse gathers from the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden of her Beloved, are pomegranates (Cant. 4:13), borrowing their taste from the Bread of heaven, and their color from the Blood of Christ. She sees death dying and its author overthrown: she beholds captivity led captive from hell to earth, from earth to heaven, so 'that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth' (Phil. 2:10). The earth under the ancient curse brought forth thorns and thistles; but now the Church beholds it laughing with flowers and restored by the grace of a new benediction. Mindful of the verse, 'My heart danceth for joy, and in my song will I praise Him', she refreshes herself with the fruits of His Passion which she gathers from the Tree of the Cross, and with the flowers of His Resurrection whose fragrance invites the frequent visits of her Spouse.

Then it is that He exclaims, 'Behold thou art fair, My beloved, yea pleasant: also our bed is green' (Cant. 1:16). She shows her desire for His coming and whence she hopes to obtain it; not because of her own merits but because of the flowers of that field which God hath blessed. Christ who willed to be conceived and brought up in Nazareth, that is, the town of branches, delights in such blossoms. Pleased by such heavenly fragrance the bridegroom rejoices to revisit the heart's chamber when He finds it adorned with fruits and decked with flowers--that is, meditating on the mystery of His Passion or on the glory of His Resurrection.

The tokens of the Passion we recognize as the fruitage of the ages of the past, appearing in the fullness of time during the reign of sin and death (Gal. 4:4). But it is the glory of the Resurrection, in the new springtime of regenerating grace, that the fresh flowers of the later age come forth, whose fruit shall be given without measure at the general resurrection, when time shall be no more. And so it is written, 'The winter is past, the rain is over and gone, the flowers appear on the earth' (Cant. 2:11ff); signifying that summer has come back with Him who dissolves icy death into the spring of a new life and says, 'Behold, I make all things new' (Rev. 21:5). His Body sown in the grave has blossomed in the Resurrection (I Cor. 15:42); and in like manner our valleys and fields which were barren or frozen, as if dead, glow with reviving life and warmth.

The Father of Christ who makes all things new, is well pleased with the freshness of those flowers and fruits, and the beauty of the field which breathes forth such heavenly fragrance; and He says in benediction, 'See, the smell of My Son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed' (Gen. 27:27). Blessed to overflowing, indeed, since of His fullness have all we received (John 1:16). But the Bride may come when she pleases and gather flowers and fruits therewith to adorn the inmost recesses of her conscience; that the Bridegroom when He cometh may find the chamber of her heart redolent with perfume.

So it behoves us, if we would have Christ for a frequent guest, to fill our hearts with faithful meditations on the mercy He showed in dying for us, and on His mighty power in rising again from the dead. To this David testified when he sang, 'God spake once, and twice I have also heard the same; that power belongeth unto God; and that Thou, Lord, art merciful (Ps. 62:11f). And surely there is proof enough and to spare in that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification, and ascended into heaven that He might protect us from on high, and sent the Holy Spirit for our comfort. Hereafter He will come again for the consummation of our bliss. In His Death He displayed His mercy, in His Resurrection His power; both combine to manifest His glory.

The Bride desires to be stayed with flagons and comforted with apples, because she knows how easily the warmth of love can languish and grow cold; but such helps are only until she has entered into the bride chamber. There she will receive His long-desired caresses even as she sighs, 'His left hand is under my head and His right hand doth embrace me' (Cant. 2:6). Then she will perceive how far the embrace of the right hand excels all sweetness, and that the left hand with which He at first caressed her cannot be compared to it. She will understand what she has heard: 'It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing' (John 6:63). She will prove what she hath read: 'My memorial is sweeter than honey, and mine inheritance than the honey-comb' (Ecclus. 24:20). What is written elsewhere, 'The memorial of Thine abundant kindness shall be showed' (Ps. 145:7), refers doubtless to those of whom the Psalmist had said just before: 'One generation shall praise Thy works unto another and declare Thy power' (Ps. 145:4). Among us on the earth there is His memory; but in the Kingdom of heaven His very Presence. That Presence is the joy of those who have already attained to beatitude; the memory is the comfort of us who are still wayfarers, journeying towards the Fatherland.

-Bernard of Clairvaux, "On Loving God"

[drstevej]

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[opus86]

"Would those reprobates experiencing the joy of eternal torment burning in hell agree with this defintion of 'perfectly loving'?"

Don't know - don't want to find out.

IIRC the prof's position, the argument is that God's holiness cannot be superseded by his love. Because He hates sin His love does not spare sinful reprobates from eternal damnation.

[Jean Chauvin]

""I affirm, therefore, that this grace is simply and absolutely necessary for the illumination of the mind, the due ordering of the affections, and the inclination of the will to that which is good. It is this grace which operates on the mind, the affections, and the will; which infuses good thoughts into the mind, inspires good desires into the actions, and bends the will to carry into execution good thoughts and good desires. This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co-operates lest we will in vain. It averts temptations, assists and grants succour in the midst of temptations, sustains man against the flesh, the world and Satan, and in this great contest grants to man the enjoyment of the victory. It raises up again those who are conquered and have fallen, establishes and supplies them with new strength, and renders them more cautious. This grace commences salvation, promotes it, and perfects and consummates it." James Arminius"

Translation: "I cannot find a way to reconcile my central theme of Humanist Free-Will with the Bible -especially Total Depravity, so I must wholesale invent a new kind of "grace". I must redefine the idea of "grace" from the understood "unmerited favor" to something God gives somebody. In this way, I can please the Romanist community and their "infusion" of "grace" and I can sound Biblical at the same time. I must also redefine other concepts such as God's omniscience. God's now is said -not to know all things- but to know all possiblities (middle knowledge). I will still call it "omniscience" so I appear to be "Biblical". I will also redefine "atonement" such that Christ doesn't actually pay the penalty due men for thier sin -my denial of Limited Atonement would mean I have to logically be consistent and say that all men are saved. So, Jesus cannot said to have paid the penalty due a man's sin. He must said to do a "something" -a "something" that I cannot quite define or get other Arminians to agree upon -even though we all agree that he didn't actually pay the penalty due a man's sin. There are many many other Reformational concepts I must change the definition of to appear "Biblical", but I'm running out of time.

-Jacob Arminius

Membership application vetoed!

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

Ammended:

Oh, and the most important thing -I must hide my true beliefs. Otherwise my employers will remove my steady income." -Jacob Arminius

Application still vetoed.

Jean

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Well, I suppose that "archivist" does have a better connotation than "thief." ~~ OP

Yes, it does have a nicer ring to it, doesn't it? (see, that is why His Fishiness has named me his "minister of diplomacy" -- on my good days, anyway. grin)

[P-Marlowe]

Sorry, Charlie.

"Of what service to me can a dissension be which is undertaken merely through a reckless humour of mind, or a schism created in the church of Christ, of which, by the grace of God and Christ, I profess myself to be a member? If my brethren suppose that I am incited to such an enterprise through ambition or avarice, I sincerely declare in the Lord, that they know me not. But I can confess that I am so free from the latter of these vices, as never to have been tickled, on any occasion, with even the most enticing of its snares -- though it might be in my power to excuse or palliate it under some pretext or other. With regard to ambition, I possess it not, except to that honourable kind which impels me to this service -- to inquire with all earnestness in the Holy Scriptures for divine truth, and mildly and without contradiction to declare it when found, without prescribing it to any one, or labouring to extort consent, much less through a desire to "have dominion over the faith of others," but rather for the purpose of my winning some souls for Christ, that I may be a sweet savour to him, and may obtain an approved reputation in the church of the saints. This good name I hope I shall obtain by the grace of Christ, after a long period of patient endurance; though I be now a reproach to my brethren, and "made as the filth of the world and the offscouring of all things" to those who with me worship and invoke one God the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ, in one spirit and with the same faith, and who have the same hope with me of obtaining the heavenly inheritance through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ."

"But I have finished. For I have occupied your attention, most honourable sir, a sufficient length of time; and I have made a serious encroachment on those valuable moments which you would have devoted to matters of greater importance. Your excellency will have the condescension to forgive the liberty which I have taken to address this letter to you, as it has been extorted from me by a degree of necessity -- and not to disdain to afford me your patronage and protection, just so far as divine truth and the peace and concord of the Christian church will allow you to vouchsafe." James Arminius

Gracious to the end.

<><

Adieu.

Marlowe

[P-Marlowe]

Membership application vetoed!

Who died and made you pope? ;-)

[Diamond]

I herewith apply for membership in your club.

Has anybody quoted Augustine yet?

" Many hear the word of truth; but some believe, while others contradict. Therefore, the former will to believe; the latter do not will." Who does not know this? Who can deny this? But since in some the win is prepared by the Lord, in others it is not prepared, we must assuredly be able to distinguish what comes from God's mercy, and what from His judgment. "What Israel sought for," says the apostle, "he hath not obtained, but the election hath obtained it; and the rest were blinded, as it is written, God gave to them the spirit of compunction,--eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, even to this day. And David said, Let their table be made a snare, a retribution, and a stumblingblock to them; let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see; and bow down their back always." Here is mercy and judgment,--mercy towards the election which has obtained the righteousness of God, but judgment to the rest which have been blinded. And yet the former, because they willed, believed; the latter, because they did not will believed not. Therefore mercy and judgment were manifested in the very wills themselves. Certainly such an election is of grace, not at all of merits. For he had before said, "So, therefore, even at this present time, the remnant has been saved by the election of grace. And if by grace, now it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace." Therefore the election obtained what it obtained gratuitously; there preceded none of those things which they might first give, and it should be given to them again. He saved them for nothing. But to the rest who were blinded, as is there plainly declared, it was done in recompense. "All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth." But His ways are unsearchable. Therefore the mercy by which He freely delivers, and the truth by which He righteously judges, are equally unsearchable.

A TREATISE ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS,
BY ST. AUGUSTIN, BISHOP OF HIPPO.
THE FIRST BOOK.
ADDRESSED TO PROSPER AND HILARY.
AD. 428 OR 429.

Cordially,

[P-Marlowe]

Oh, and the most important thing -I must hide my true beliefs. Otherwise my employers will remove my steady income." -Jacob Arminius

Despite your unjustified attack on Mr. Arminius' good name and character, I shall refrain from utilizing the Servetus card. But don't tempt me again. I am weak.

Adieu

<><

Marlowe

[CCWoody]

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Before anyone accuses me of being illegitimate for not putting up a quote, here is one:

The Holy Scriptures have been written in English with the blood of martyrs — if we may so speak the blood of Frith, Tyndale, and Rogers: it is a crown of glory for that translation. At the moment of Tyndale’s perfidious arrest, Rogers had fortunately saved the manuscript of the Old Testament, and now resolved to delay the printing no longer. When the news of this reached the Reformer in his cell at Vilvorde, it cast a gleam of light upon his latter days and filled his heart with joy. The whole Bible, — that was the legacy which the dying Tyndale desired to leave to his fellow-countrymen. He took pleasure in his gloomy dungeon in following with his mind’s eye that divine Scripture from city to city and from cottage to cottage; his imagination pictured to him the struggles it would have to go through, and also its victories. ‘The Word of God,’ he said, ‘never was without persecution — no more than the sun can be without his light. By what right doth the pope forbid God to speak in the English tongue? Why should not the Sermons of the Apostles, preached no doubt in the mother-tongue of those who heard them, be now written in the mother-tongue of those who read them?’ Tyndale did not think of proving the divinity of the Bible by learned dissertations. ‘Scripture derives its authority from Him who sent it,’ he said. ‘Would you know the reason why men believe in Scripture? It is Scripture. — It is itself the instrument which outwardly leads men to believe, whilst inwardly, the spirit of God Himself, speaking through Scripture, gives faith to His children.’

Excerpted from
HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION IN THE TIME OF CALVIN
by J.H. Merle d’Aubigne
http://www.williamtyndale.com

[CCWoody]

***However, I can't agree that hiliness is His most important attribute. I take notice of mosts and greatests and things.***

Just for the record, I have always maintained that His most important attribute is that He is God, just exactly as He tells us in the Name He has chosen in which to reveal Himself:

"I AM THAT I AM"

And that He is first and foremost faithful to Himself:

"I AM who I have been" or "I will be who I AM"

Woody.

For thou art not a God that loueth wickednes: neither shall euill dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: for thou hatest all them that worke iniquitie. Thou shalt destroy them that speake lyes: the Lord will abhorre the bloodie man and deceitfull.
(Psa 5:4-6 GB)

[Jean Chauvin]

"Who died and made you pope? ;-)"

Executive Privilege. You can appeal to Pontiff Piel if you wish.

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

"Despite your unjustified attack on Mr. Arminius' good name and character, I shall refrain from utilizing the Servetus card. But don't tempt me again. I am weak."

"I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids" -Michael Servetus

Jean

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" -Leviticus 24:16

[drstevej]

***Executive Privilege. You can appeal to Pontiff Piel if you wish.***

Marlowe, Jean was simply responding in accord with my prior post #101.

[lockeliberty]

Chapter I. Why we should love God and the measure of that love

You want me to tell you why God is to be loved and how much. I answer, the reason for loving God is God Himself; and the measure of love due to Him is immeasurable love. Is this plain? Doubtless, to a thoughtful man; but I am debtor to the unwise also. A word to the wise is sufficient; but I must consider simple folk too. Therefore I set myself joyfully to explain more in detail what is meant above.

We are to love God for Himself, because of a twofold reason; nothing is more reasonable, nothing more profitable. When one asks, Why should I love God? he may mean, What is lovely in God? or What shall I gain by loving God? In either case, the same sufficient cause of love exists, namely, God Himself.

And first, of His title to our love. Could any title be greater than this, that He gave Himself for us unworthy wretches? And being God, what better gift could He offer than Himself? Hence, if one seeks for God's claim upon our love here is the chiefest: Because He first loved us (I John 4:19).

Ought He not to be loved in return, when we think who loved, whom He loved, and how much He loved? For who is He that loved? The same of whom every spirit testifies: 'Thou art my God: my goods are nothing unto Thee' (Ps. 16:2, Vulg.). And is not His love that wonderful charity which 'seeketh not her own'? (I Cor.13:5). But for whom was such unutterable love made manifest? The apostle tells us: 'When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son' (Rom. 5:10). So it was God who loved us, loved us freely, and loved us while yet we were enemies. And how great was this love of His? St. John answers: 'God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life' (John 3:16). St. Paul adds: 'He spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all' (Rom. 8:32); and the son says of Himself, 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends' (John 15:13).

This is the claim which God the holy, the supreme, the omnipotent, has upon men, defiled and base and weak. Some one may urge that this is true of mankind, but not of angels. True, since for angels it was not needful. He who succored men in their time of need, preserved angels from such need; and even as His love for sinful men wrought wondrously in them so that they should not remain sinful, so that same love which in equal measure He poured out upon angels kept them altogether free from sin.

-Bernard of Clairvaux, "On Loving God"

[biblewonk]

Not wanting to split hairs, nor fill up the good doctor's ping thread with ancillary topics, but is it accurate to say that one attribute of God is the "chief" (my word) attribute? I had a college class called Christian Thought, in which the idea was relayed that God is both perfectly holy and perfectly loving, and the two attributes were complementary and inseparable.

I'm reminded of the 3 trait 'definition' of God that was used in philosphy class. God is all knowing, all powerful and all good. I really dislike such things. I believe the main point of the whole bible is for us to learn who He is and after reading it 40ish times, I think it is plain wrong to try and sum Him up. The whole bible is about who He is. Salvation and who we are are smaller points.

[xzins]

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. 41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Jesus

This is my only application.