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The Hobbit Hole IV – The Road Goes Ever On…

Posted on 08/04/2003 9:43:18 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog

Welcome to The Hobbit Hole!

The Road Goes Ever On…

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.


TOPICS: The Hobbit Hole
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To: RosieCotton
The teachers were just tickled to death! They couldn't believe it! The egg was a little over an hour old!
33,741 posted on 10/21/2003 8:15:47 AM PDT by 2Jedismom (HHD with 4 Chickens)
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To: HairOfTheDog
Here is his route....

How does his route compare to that of Lewis and Clark?

33,742 posted on 10/21/2003 8:20:27 AM PDT by msdrby (Vowels are overrated.)
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To: ecurbh; HairOfTheDog
Many prayers for a safe journey and for a wonderful life together. Cheers!

Stay off the road, cut across country if you can.

Well, maybe that would work for the Shire and various Middle-earthy places and all, but the interstates will prob. be safe. . .just avoid the Nazgul, I hear they are just a total "bummer" at truck stops.

Have a great trip and good arrival!
33,743 posted on 10/21/2003 8:35:35 AM PDT by mstar (Morgenstern)
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To: RMDupree
Hey Ruthy! Hope your job is going well and the family.

I really regret some of the choices I've made in my life

I think we all do, it's called living in fallen flesh in a fallen world with lots of fallen people. Be comforted, God is working for His people, inspite of us and them.
33,744 posted on 10/21/2003 8:40:25 AM PDT by mstar (Morgenstern)
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To: mstar
. . .just avoid the Nazgul, I hear they are just a total "bummer" at truck stops.

My dad used to be a trucker. I think the term used in the '80's was "lot lizard."

33,745 posted on 10/21/2003 8:40:48 AM PDT by ksen (HHD)
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To: msdrby
Lewis and Clark


33,746 posted on 10/21/2003 8:42:39 AM PDT by 2Jedismom (HHD with 4 Chickens)
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To: ksen
I think the term used in the '80's was "lot lizard."

Ok, I give, what's a "lot lizard"?
33,747 posted on 10/21/2003 8:42:49 AM PDT by mstar (Morgenstern)
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To: mstar
Thank you! (((MSTAR)))
33,748 posted on 10/21/2003 8:43:28 AM PDT by RMDupree (HHD: Deep roots are not reached by the frost.)
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To: mstar
Ok, I give, what's a "lot lizard"?

Er, um......a lady of the evening who hangs out in truck stop parking lots.

That's where I thought you were going with your Nazgul-truck stop reference.

33,749 posted on 10/21/2003 8:50:35 AM PDT by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen
Er, um......a lady of the evening who hangs out in truck stop parking lots. That's where I thought you were going with your Nazgul-truck stop reference.

Well. . .noooo, somehow I have never thought of a Nazgul as a lady of the evening who hangs out in truck stop parking lots.
I was comparing them more to a disgutled driver who has been on the road too long, with too much coffee, and working for a mean boss. Now does that sound like a Nazgul or what. Somehow the thought of a Nazgul as a "pavement princess" just doesn't seem to fit.
33,750 posted on 10/21/2003 8:59:21 AM PDT by mstar (Morgenstern)
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To: HairOfTheDog; 2Jedismom; Overtaxed; Corin Stormhands; Lucius Cornelius Sulla; Sam Cree; ...
Ok, let's look at Frodo's betrayal of Smeagol.

A Tolkien Virgin: The Two Towers - Book IV - Chapter 6 -- The Journey Continues
July 03, 2001 - Tuesday

Book IV
Chapter 6
The Forbidden Pool

Frodo is woken early by Faramir (and Sam joins them) to come inspect a black creature darting around in the forbidden pool, below. And so one of my questions--what of Gollum?--is quickly answered--at least, for the short-term.

Frodo goes about rescuing Gollum, of all things, and he comes. That Gollum should refer to Sam as "the cross rude hobbit" was amusing. I don't know why the "treachery" Frodo used to save him and the rough handling of Smeagol should rub me the wrong way, but I felt like Smeagol, vile as he is, was justified in being angry. And Tolkien displays him incredibly.

For example: "We are lost, lost. No name, no business, no Precious, nothing. Only empty. Only hungry: yes we are hungry. A few little fishes, nasty bony little fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death. So wise they are; so just, so very just." When Gollum says that, I felt real pity for him. It shows that he's quite intelligent. He's cleverly trying to escape with his life, relying on the pity of his captors. But even though he can say how miserable he is, I can't help but wonder if he is really aware of his own misery more than an animal is. How self-reflective is he? And that makes me pity him more, but not in the way Gollum was trying manipulate Faramir into pitying him. I'm having a hard time describing how that passage made me feel and think, but suffice it to say that Gollum is just such a sad, wretched, being, in spite of his evil nature. Part of me wants him to die, to be put out of his misery, but there's still a part of me that wishes he could be cured, or redeemed. And again, Tolkien's handling of Gollum is brilliant.

The chapter ends with a stern warning from Faramir. Don't trust Smeagol, and whatever you do, don't go to Cirith Ungol! But, as Frodo points out, what other choice is there?

It's interesting that Gollum's fate is so tied up with the Ring. I mean, sure, it makes some sense given how long he possessed it. But, if that's why he is so drawn to it, if that's why he is fated to help Frodo destroy it, then why isn't Bilbo more involved? And, for that matter, when will the "pity of Bilbo" decide the fate of many (or whatever Gandalf's warning to Frodo was)?

As the story goes I see now how it's good that Gollum is still around to help guide Frodo, but I say again that if Bilbo had just killed Gollum outright there would be no need for Gollum now to help (and no, you don't need to remind me of what Gandalf said to Frodo when he wished Bilbo had killed him). In the end, I know, there's no arguing with Fate (or should I say, Tolkien?).

Finally, a bit nit-picky and a change of subject, but I was looking at the map at the front of the book and it makes little sense to me that Minas Morgul isn't become Sauron's main gate into Mordor. It's just over the river from Minas Tirith, so if he focused his force and power there, it would be to his advantage. After all, Men fear it completely, already.

Morannon opens only upon the Dagorlad which is itself totally abandoned and empty. Why does Sauron focus his attention there where an attack seems much less likely? The maps in the book aren't by Tolkien, did he ever draw maps of Middle-earth? If so, why aren't they included?

till next time,
keep thinking,

mark-edmond
Kanazawa, Japan
far(out)

Was it really a betrayal? Frodo saved Smeagol's life, but Gollum was able to use that to regain the upper hand, or had Gollum ever lost the upper hand in his dealing with Smeagol?

Ok, why was the Black Gate way up on the northern side of Mordor instead of right net to Minas Morgul?

33,751 posted on 10/21/2003 9:03:40 AM PDT by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen; Wneighbor
Ok, why was the Black Gate way up on the northern side of Mordor instead of right net to Minas Morgul?

Every southernor would understand that...

33,752 posted on 10/21/2003 9:10:39 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (Writing for the Right at www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: ksen
Because that is where the two arms of the mountains met...

Ered Lithui across the north, Ephel Duath proceeding down to the south. There was a gap..."a deep defile"...between them that the Dark Lord sealed up with the black gate.

Upon the west of Mordor marched the gloomy range of Ephel Dúath, the Mountains of Shadow, and upon the north the broken peaks and barren ridges of Ered Lithui, grey as ash. But as these ranges approached one another, being indeed but parts of one great wall about the mournful plains of Lithlad and of Gorgoroth, and the bitter inland sea of Núrnen amidmost, they swung out long arms northward; and between these arms there was a deep defile. This was Cirith Gorgor, the Haunted Pass, the entrance to the land of the Enemy. High cliffs lowered upon either side, and thrust forward from its mouth were two sheer hills, black-boned and bare. Upon them stood the Teeth of Mordor, two towers strong and tall. In days long past they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm. But the strength of Gondor failed, and men slept, and for long years the towers stood empty. Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers, which had fallen into decay, were repaired, and filled with arms, and garrisoned with ceaseless vigilance. Stony-faced they were, with dark window-holes staring north and east and west, and each window was full of sleepless eyes.

Across the mouth of the pass, from cliff to cliff, the Dark Lord had built a rampart of stone. In it there was a single gate of iron, and upon its battlement sentinels paced unceasingly. Beneath the hills on either side the rock was bored into a hundred caves and maggot-holes: there a host of orcs lurked, ready at a signal to issue forth like black ants going to war. None could pass the Teeth of Mordor and not feel their bite, unless they were summoned by Sauron, or knew the secret passwords that would open the Morannon, the black gate of his land.

I like the fact that Tolkien gave the pass between the mountain ranges several names...

The Black Gate
The Morannon
Cirith Gorgor (which means The Haunted Pass.)

33,753 posted on 10/21/2003 9:13:52 AM PDT by 2Jedismom (HHD with 4 Chickens)
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To: ksen
Ok, why was the Black Gate way up on the northern side of Mordor instead of right net to Minas Morgul?

A good question...something I have never considered.

Unless the terrain surrounding Minas Morgul wouldn't support a vast army? I dunno...

33,754 posted on 10/21/2003 9:14:39 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow ("Forth now, and fear no darkness!")
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To: g'nad
perfect example fer the need tuh re-institute publik floggings... fer the hoodlum, and his parents...

I'd prefer Singapore-style caning for the punks, myself, for the little stuff. No criminal record, no probation or community service. Five or ten whacks, and their debt to society is paid. Then they would be free to ponder if they want that doubled, if they get in trouble again.

It sounds barbaric, but it's more humane than having to shoot them when they get into even worse trouble.

33,755 posted on 10/21/2003 9:18:14 AM PDT by 300winmag (All that is gold does not glitter.)
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To: ksen
Ok, why was the Black Gate way up on the northern side of Mordor instead of right net to Minas Morgul?

I don't have my Middle-earth maps, ect. here, but I think I had read somewhere that the gates were built to keep the captives of the Dark Lord inside, so they could not leave. Similar to the Berlin Wall.
33,756 posted on 10/21/2003 9:18:26 AM PDT by mstar (Morgenstern)
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To: 2Jedismom; ItsOurTimeNow
Great quote 2J! And it brings out that Sauron didn't even build the Black Gate.....Gondorians did!

So it wasn't built to defend against Men and Elves, it was built to keep Sauron out of Mordor when he returned......very interesting.

Also interesting is the fact that the Men of Gondor knew that at some point Sauron would return.
33,757 posted on 10/21/2003 9:20:09 AM PDT by ksen (HHD)
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To: ksen; 2Jedismom
So it wasn't built to defend against Men and Elves, it was built to keep Sauron out of Mordor when he returned......very interesting.

Hmmm...the "Eastern Gate" in Jerusalem has been blocked off to "prevent" Christ's return...

33,758 posted on 10/21/2003 9:23:00 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (Writing for the Right at www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: mstar
You're close!

The gate was actually built by the Dark Lord. Before the gate was built, the Men of Gondor built two towers on either side of the gap between the mountains..to keep an eye on things. But they neglected to man them and the Dark Lord took them over.

Same thing happened with Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Moon...the Nine took it over and it became Minas Morgul...and had Shelob for a neighbor...
33,759 posted on 10/21/2003 9:23:33 AM PDT by 2Jedismom (HHD with 4 Chickens)
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To: ksen
No...Sauron built the gate...Men built the towers.
33,760 posted on 10/21/2003 9:24:03 AM PDT by 2Jedismom (HHD with 4 Chickens)
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