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[Lord Of The Rings] Celeborn Unplugged [Very long analysis]
Suite101 ^ | 11-11-2002 | Michael Martinez

Posted on 11/16/2002 2:13:19 AM PST by JameRetief

Celeborn Unplugged

Every now and then, someone asks me to speak up for Celeborn. He is, perhaps, the most maligned and misunderstood of Tolkien's characters. Many people consider the silver-haired Lord of Lorien to be oafish or even foolish. Why? Basically because of one sentence uttered by Galadriel.

And now the sabers of rationalization begin to rattle in their sheathes. "Oh, but he doesn't actually do anything in the book!" his detractors say. Like, Galadriel gets off her royal duff and does something? Sorry. That Warg won't howl. Neither character accomplishes much in the story. They both accomplish a great deal in the background: Galadriel helps Gandalf and Celeborn helps overthrow Dol Guldur's forces. Together, they lead the Elves of Lorien.

The chief complaint people seem to raise against Galadriel is to ask what she is doing with such a loser like Celeborn. Frankly, in my book, anyone who can marry a Galadriel is a winner, but that's just my opinion. Call it an interpretation of the text. Say I'm reading something into the text which isn't there. It's not like no one else has ever done that.

The real problem with Celeborn is that Tolkien never made up his mind about the guy. For example, Tolkien called him "Celeborn the Wise". And people have asked "Why"? Robert Foster's only comment on the subject in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth is to say that Celeborn does not seem especially bright in The Lord of the Rings. Well, who does? Is someone going to argue that Samwise Gamgee (whose first name means "half-wit") is a paragon of intellectual development? Or how about Gimli, Dwarf-philosopher that he is, extolling the virtues of stone?

The smartest character in the Fellowship, Gandalf, can't even figure out that Saruman has betrayed him. When was the last time Celeborn was captured by agents of the Enemy? Okay, maybe that's not fair to Gandalf. After all, someone has to be captured, and he is a convenient prisoner-type. He's all shifty-eyed and secretive -- it's a wonder Saruman didn't lock him up a thousand years earlier.

Of course, Tolkien's definition of "Wise" seems to differ from the definitions most people use today. Tolkien didn't mean "Celeborn the Wise-guy". When the Fellowship shows up in Lorien, they aren't blind-folded, gagged, and hog-tied, thrown into the trunk of a Lincoln Town Car, driven around for three hours, and then forced to confront the surly Elf-lord in a darkened warehouse. "If youse guys think you're gonna git some help from us, youse got another ting commin' to ya! Oh, crud. Here comes da wife. Everyone pick up a harp and act ELF-like!"

Nor did Tolkien mean "Celeborn the Wise-cracker". "Hey, Gimli! How many Dwarves does it take to change a light-bulb?"

But when people speak of "The Wise", they often leave me with the impression that they feel "The Wise" were the smartest Elves around. Yet what is the justification for that belief? Feanor was the smartest Noldo in his day, and look where his brains got him. Does possessing intelligence confer some sort of wisdom? Absolutely not. In fact, intelligent people often make the most foolish or stupid mistakes. History is addled with the errors of the brilliant.

Wisdom is a combination of knowledge, experience, and intuition. And Tolkien's Elves all possess knowledge, experience, and intuition. Even Legolas, who seems to be a bit young for an Elf (probably being no more than a few hundred years old), possesses knowledge, experience, and intuition. He is wise beyond the years of any mortal being, certainly. But is he one of the Elven-wise? Apparently not. After all. He signs up to go on the Quest of Mount Doom and ends up meeting his doom by the sea. Good-bye, Middle-earth. Hello, forced retirement in Aman.

Some people seem to feel that good deductive reasoning skills are an aspect of wisdom. After all, a wise person would pick up on all the clues and figure out that Moriarty is really the bad guy. But Celeborn is no Sherlock Holmes, my dear Watson. Nor should he be. After all, Celeborn understands who his enemy is. He isn't riddled with grave doubts and temptations like his wife. He has a pretty solid personality in that respect.

Celeborn's credibility as a wise person is usually questioned on three points: why is he rebuked by Galadriel in front of their court and the Fellowship; why isn't he on the White Council; and why doesn't he want the One Ring? Of course, the reason why he is rebuked is that Tolkien wants to convey something to the reader. And what is the author trying to tell us?

Celeborn is as astonished as everyone else at the (premature) news of Gandalf's death. When Celeborn says, "And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria," many readers get their hackles up. Hey, don't be dissin' our favorite Wizard, dude!

But Celeborn's reservation is a necessary restatement of Aragorn's previous warning to Gandalf not to enter Moria. Gandalf's credibility as one of the Wise has been severely weakened. He could not find a way around the obstacles in his path, and when push came to shove he was outwitted by the Balrog (which dragged him down into the abyss). Many people assume the Balrog was after the One Ring. And yet, where are we told that it even knew about the One Ring? I think Gandalf had one ticked off Balrog on his hands, and that was about all. The old boy had blithely dropped part of the mountain on top of the Balrog when he couldn't think of what else to do. I'm pretty sure that Balrogs, being the flame-filled critters that they are, don't appreciate having mountains dropped on them.

My point is that readers often get too focused on the main point of the story. Tolkien introduced a personal conflict for Gandalf so that he could be conveniently removed from the action. Gandalf's loss in Moria is really no different a literary device from his urgent business away south in The Hobbit. He is too powerful a character for the author to keep him with the Fellowship, so he has to go.

But getting rid of Gandalf undermines his credibility. Hence, someone who (so far) has not seemed weak and foolish has to restore Gandalf's credibility. Now, we can all agree that Galadriel restores Gandalf's reputation by refuting a challenge to Gandalf's decisions. But she cannot answer just anyone's challenge. She must answer a respectable challenge. Someone must risk his own credibility in order to put Galadriel in a position to defend Gandalf.

The expression of doubt would not sound right coming from Aragorn or any member of the Fellowship. Nor would it be appropriate for one of the lesser Elves in the room to speak up and say, "Gee, Gandalf sure pulled a boner dis time, boss!" The reader's concerns about Gandalf's wisdom and the appropriateness of his choices must come from someone with authority. And Celeborn has the proper authority.

By sacrificing Celeborn's credibility (temporarily), Tolkien offers the reader a way out of a literary conundrum. No one has to criticize poor old Gandalf for making what seems like a stupid decision. After all, the Fellowship could have just crossed over the High Pass above Rivendell, which was protected by the Beornings, and traveled south through Orc-threatened lands in the Vales of Anduin, right? Or they could have snuck through the Gap of Rohan when all the Orcs were napping in the sunlight. The weakest part of the story is Tolkien's assertion (through Gandalf) that the only way to get out of Eriador (and Hollin) with the Ring is to go through Moria to Lorien.

Gandalf, of course, wanted to reach Lorien. He knew he would get help there. So going through the Gap of Rohan really makes no sense, in retrospect. It's good that Gandalf didn't waste time arguing with Boromir over the value of taking the Ring to Gondor. In fact, one appreciates Gandalf's wisdom a little bit more when one considers the fact that Gandalf put that argument on a backburner.

Of course, another complaint against Celeborn rears its ugly head from time to time. People view his retraction of his welcome to Gimli (and all who go with Gimli -- that is, the entire Fellowship) as a sign of stupidity. One must wonder about the reasoning behind such a judgement, though. After all, Celeborn admits that he (and, presumably, Galadriel) had long suspected some powerful and terrible thing dwelt in Moria. Now his greatest fear has been confirmed, and he finds his little realm is not only threatened by Dol Guldur, but also by the power in Moria. And it's not just any power, it's a Balrog.

People look at The Silmarillion and think, "Gee, Elves killed Balrogs right and left. So why should Celeborn be concerned about one?" Well, The Silmarillion is misleading. The only tale where Elves kill Balrogs is the story about Tuor and the fall of Gondolin, and Christopher Tolkien had to summarize a very early, pre-Silmarillion story from The Book of Lost Tales to create that chapter. Realistically, had J.R.R. Tolkien lived long enough to rewrite that story for The Silmarillion, he probably would not have had so many Balrog kills. He might have retained Glorfindel's heroic sacrifice and that would have been it.

Celeborn had to worry about keeping Lothlorien on the map for as long as possible. The odds stacked against Lothlorien's further long-term survival were, in fact, rather overwhelming. So why should any wise person (especially one of the Elven Wise, who have their own concerns anyway) not be a little concerned upon learning that a Balrog lives next door? Galadriel's heart must skipped a beat as well, and she was spared having to express her concern by Celeborn's outburst.

In fact, Celeborn's retraction showed that he and Galadriel were not always of one mind. His quick apology to Gimli, following upon her gentle admonition, demonstrates a strength of character that Galadriel did not see in herself. Celeborn was able to change horses in the middle of the stream. He was not compelled by his past choices toward a single course of action. Galadriel, on the other hand, had trapped herself in Middle-earth through her own choices (or so we are led to believe in The Road Goes Ever On). Celeborn's temperament is flexible and open to persuasion.

Nonetheless, he is also knowledgeable about the outer world. When Aragorn reveals that he has not decided which way the Fellowship will go, Celeborn buys him a little time by giving the Fellowship a few boats. The boats allow Aragorn to keep his options open. But they also speed the group on their way toward the inevitable choices they must make. Aragorn doesn't realize that, since he loses track of how fast they proceed down river.

When Celeborn summons the Fellowship one last time before they depart, he tells them: "For we are come now to the edge of doom. Here those who wish may await the oncoming of the hour till either the ways of the world lie open again, or we summon them to the last need of Lorien." There is a sense of urgency in his words which is buried beneath Aragorn's doubt and Celeborn's adept handling of that doubt. While Celeborn refrains from making choices for the Fellowship, he wisely limits those choices.

Let's suppose that the Fellowship were to leave Lothlorien on foot. Where would they go? Celeborn warns them to avoid Fangorn forest. So they would either have to return to the mountains and try to slip past Isengard, or they would have to follow the river -- perhaps even try to cross the river at the Undeeps. The gift of the boats steers the Fellowship away from the mountains and from crossing the river too soon. The vital crossing will be made in the south as a consequence of Celeborn's decision.

Of course, given how things turn out with Fangorn Forest, it is natural to ask why Celeborn should warn the Fellowship to stay away from the woodlands. In fact, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are reunited with Gandalf, it is under the eaves of Fangorn Forest. Merry and Pippin, after meeting old Treebeard himself, ask him why Celeborn warned them not to enter the forest. For his part, Treebeard replies, "And I might have said much the same, if you had been going the other way." He acknowledges that both his land and Celeborn's are very dangerous for outsiders. Gandalf hints at something similar, too, when he tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that each of them is dangerous in his own way, just as Treebeard and the Ents are dangerous.

Celeborn's warning is sufficient to instill caution in the travelers. He cannot prevent them from entering Fangorn Forest, nor compel them to do so. But in the face of Boromir's doubts concerning the old wives' tales, Celeborn reminds the travelers that "oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

His remark is curiously reflected in Tolkien's own epitaph to the legacy of Celeborn, given in the Prologue: "but there is no record of the day when at last [Celeborn] sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth." When Celeborn the Wise left Middle-earth, much that was once needful for the wise to know went with him. In a way, Tolkien was admonishing the reader not to take Celeborn for granted. He was a gold mine of experience and knowledge, and therefore wisdom. He was very shrewd and could read the current of the river as well as anyone.

Hence, when saying "Farewell" to Aragorn, Celeborn conceded that he would soon be parted from Galadriel. He was willing to accept the separation, knowing that in time he would follow her over Sea. People often ask why Celeborn should have allowed Galadriel to leave him like that. But I think Tolkien explained Celeborn's reasons well enough in various places.

For one thing, Galadriel probably needed to undergo some healing. She had not only been a Keeper of one of the Rings of Power, and therefore subject to the power of the One Ring (albeit indirectly), she was the last living leader of the rebellious Noldor of the First Age. Galadriel had grown weary of her exile with the long years, which regret she had expressed in the song she made for the Fellowship as they left Lothlorien. She most likely needed some time to readjust to being in rapport with the Valar. For she and Elrond were also the last Elven Ring-keepers, and the Rings of Power were originally a second act of Elvish rebellion. Galadriel therefore had to absolve herself of guilt over two "Fall" events. No other living Elf needed that kind of healing.

The separation from Galadriel would thus be Celeborn's opportunity to say farewell to Middle-earth. He was emotionally invested in the land in ways Galadriel could not be. Now, there are people who believe fervently that Celeborn came from Aman just as Galadriel had. After all, in the last year of his life, Tolkien himself made this point. But by that time, Tolkien had forgotten much which he had written, which would have been needful for him to know. In Unfinished Tales, Christopher tells us:

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lorien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that 'He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.' In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuivienen).

Remember how I said above that Tolkien couldn't seem to make up his mind about Celeborn? The Nandorin origin for Celeborn didn't last long. Eventually, he became a Sindarin prince -- related to Thingol Greycloak -- who at one time dwelt in Doriath, and later in Harlindon as lord of the Sindar under Gil-galad. That transition was made sometime in the years 1956 to 1965, and probably occurred in the year 1965 itself, when Tolkien modified The Lord of the Rings to stipulate the Sindarin tradition.

The changes Tolkien introduced in 1965 for the Second Edition of The Lord of the Rings must be accepted as canon, superseding what had been set down in the First Edition (just as the Second Edition of The Hobbit brought that story into Middle-earth). Celeborn is therefore indisputably a Sindarin Elf. But Galadriel's words really don't make any sense, unless one invents a rather incredible backstory for Celeborn, or broadly interprets her statement to Frodo as either an uncorrected passage or as implying that both she and Celeborn traveled over the mountains together.

There is, of course, some support for the latter interpretation. In the unpublished histories for Galadriel and Celeborn, they do enter Eriador together. But there things become complicated. Tolkien leaves Celeborn's role in Eregion in doubt, and he is not sure of when Celeborn made it to Lothlorien, or how, or why. For by making Celeborn an Elf of Doriath, Tolkien creates a reason to make Celeborn unfriendly to Dwarves. Celeborn remembers the sack of Doriath and the death of Thingol (now his close relative).

Celeborn is not especially hostile to Dwarves in The Lord of the Rings. But if one accepts Tolkien's view that Celeborn is not fond of them, then the ancient law Celeborn sets aside to allow Gimli to walk freely in Lothlorien makes sense. Amroth, former king of Lothlorien, appears to have been friendly with the Dwarves. He and his father were undoubtedly allied with the Longbeard Dwarves of Khazad-dum. But when the Dwarves awoke the Balrog and fled, they inspired great fear in Amroth's people. His kingdom effectively came to an end in the year 1981.

Galadriel and Celeborn then settled in Lothlorien and sought to restore some stability to the Elven realm. Because Lothlorien's population had been greatly diminished by the exodus, they instituted new policies. Lothlorien ceased nearly all interaction with outside peoples. They even stopped communicating with Thranduil's realm in northern Mirkwood. They remained friendly only with Rivendell, possibly Cirdan at the Havens, and maybe with the lords of Gondor. Seeing that the Dwarves had caused the exodus, Celeborn could have decided that they should no longer be welcomed in Lothlorien as a means of limiting contact with whatever they had awakened.

Thus, his decision to set aside the ancient law when the Fellowship arrived was another sign of Celeborn's flexible nature. The times had changed, and the needs of his people were different from those of a thousand years before. Lothlorien had undoubtedly increased its population, and it was obvious at this point that the Dwarves really posed no threat to Lothlorien. Celeborn could therefore afford to be generous. His sudden doubt, upon learning that a Balrog dwelt in Moria, is understandable. He had just changed the status quo. Gimli might be the first of many Dwarves to return to Lothlorien after a thousand years or more of isolation. The news of the Balrog was a poor confirmation of the decision Celeborn had just made.

It is thus to his credit that Celeborn could listen with his heart to Galadriel's admonition against retracting his welcome to Gimli. Celeborn was wise enough to realize that his were not the only concerns in the world. Galadriel is credited with being sympathetic to the Dwarves because of her Noldorin ancestry. Her people had been friendlier with Dwarves than Celeborn's people (either Nandor or Sindar) had. But Celeborn was resolute and guided by necessity. The Balrog had been let out of the bag, so to speak. Barring Gimli and all who went with him would really serve no purpose. Celeborn needed to focus on the needs of the day, and Galadriel's words reminded him that those needs were so important because the Elves and their allies were striving to preserve everything they cherished.

Galadriel had shown him very subtly how to find a rapport with Gimli: "If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlorien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?"

These are very prophetic words, and Celeborn must have reflected upon their relevance to his own future. The day was coming when Galadriel would leave him, and eventually that would be followed by the day when he would leave Middle-earth. Longing for the past and regret were feelings that Elves, all Elves, could easily understand and accept. Galadriel spoke to Celeborn, Elf to Elf, and asked him exactly the type of question an Elf would agree with. He understood what she was saying without hesitation, and his conciliatory words show that he was willing to accept that rapport with Gimli.

Of all the Elven lords mentioned in the book, Celeborn seems to be the least rattled by anything. Gildor Inglorion refrains from helping Frodo directly against the Nazgul. He probably fears that openly defying Sauron's agents will attract too much attention. He does communicate with Bombadil, Aragorn, and Rivendell on Frodo's behalf -- and yet people all too often ask what good Gildor accomplishes for Frodo. Celeborn helps Frodo readily, almost eagerly. He lives on the frontier and knows what is at stake.

But Gildor was also probably one of the lords of Eregion, or perhaps a lord of Lindon, who had become deeply embroiled in the politics of the Rings. The Noldor, for all their wisdom and friendliness toward other races, had nonetheless sinned greatly by creating the Rings of Power and failing to disclose all the facts about the Rings. Celeborn, though probably knowing Galadriel had a Ring of Power, was guiltless for the most part. Whereas Elrond was almost paralyzed with fear of the One Ring, Celeborn made his choices quickly and easily. Yes, we'll help the Ringbearer. Yes, we'll stand up to Dol Guldur and anything else Sauron throws at us.

If the only doubt Celeborn expresses concerns his warm welcome to Gimli, a doubt easily set aside with encouragement from Galadriel, then he is easily the strongest-willed Elf-lord in the book. Even Legolas seems a bit wishy-washy at times. Elrond, for all his wisdom, cannot seem to figure out what to do with Frodo. It's only after Frodo offers to take the Ring to Mordor that Elrond puts all the clues together and sees that is the task appointed to the Hobbit. Celeborn, on the other hand, seeing how everyone else is scratching their head over what to do next, figures out a way to help people move closer to their goal while leaving their options open.

Of course, there is another passage where Celeborn seems a little doubtful. And that is toward the end of the book, when he and Galadriel are speaking with Treebeard. "I do not think we shall meet again," Treebeard says to them. "I do not know, Eldest," Celeborn says respectfully. Frankly, I think it's a bit more tactful than respectful. That is, Celeborn probably understands the three of them will never be together again. People point to Galadriel's flowery "in the willow-meads of Tasarinan" reply as if it bridges the gap between idiocy and Einsteinian physics.

For me, the greatest significance of this passage is that the reader is being treated to yet another glimpse of one of those stories Tolkien never found the time to tell. If you go back and reread Treebeard's remarks to Merry and Pippin concerning Fangorn Forest and Lothlorien, and then look at his bittersweet farewell to them in "Many Partings", it becomes obvious that Celeborn, Treebeard, and Galadriel have a history. What have they done in past ages? How many times have they been together?

When Tolkien translated Treebeard's Elvish salutation to Celeborn and Galadriel (A vanimar vanimalion nostari!), he wrote: "Treebeard's greeting to Celeborn and Galadriel meant 'O beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children.'" While it's common knowledge that Celebrian was the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, it's not so well known that -- for a while -- Tolkien envisioned Amroth as their son, too. Amroth eventually became the son of Amdir (or Malgalad), but Treebeard's words imply that he knew (and loved) the children of Galadriel and Celeborn. Clearly, there was more to the Treebeard/Galadriel/Celeborn connection than Tolkien revealed in The Lord of the Rings.

And the same is true of Celeborn himself. We see only brief flashes from Celeborn's many facets. He is not a diamond in the rough so much as a glittering jewel lying half-buried amid other jewels, some brighter or less covered up. As Tolkien himself could have said, there is no record of the full tale of Celeborn, for his tale was bound up in Tolkien's heart, and when Tolkien at last sought the Grey Havens in his own way, with him went the last unrevealed memories of Celeborn's days in Middle-earth.

 alt
Author: Michael Martinez
Published on: November 11, 2002
Michael Martinez is the author of Visualizing Middle-earth


TOPICS: Books/Literature; Reference; TV/Movies; The Hobbit Hole
KEYWORDS: celeborn; elves; lordoftherings; tolkien
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1 posted on 11/16/2002 2:13:19 AM PST by JameRetief
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To: maquiladora; ecurbh; HairOfTheDog; 2Jedismom; rightwingreligiousfanatic
Another in depth analysis of an important LOTR character.
2 posted on 11/16/2002 2:19:19 AM PST by JameRetief
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To: JameRetief
If anyone is interested in more articles such as this, I am considering posting previous articles by Martinez, as well as other sources as I find them, on Tolkien's works. Perhaps 1 a day until they are all posted to allow people to digest them in a structured manner.

I will keep a ping list of those that would like to be alerted when I do. Simply let me know if you would like to be on the list and you will be pinged. Any other ping list owners are free to ping their list as well. The more the merrier. :-)

3 posted on 11/16/2002 2:34:30 AM PST by JameRetief
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To: JameRetief; ecurbh
Certainly ping me... I think ecurbh would likely ping his ringer list!

This is great background for us to have access to. Even if we don't have time to read all of them now, it would be good to have them here for later conversations about the characters!
4 posted on 11/16/2002 5:12:19 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: 2Jedismom; Alkhin; Anitius Severinus Boethius; AUsome Joy; austinTparty; Bear_in_RoseBear; ...

Ring Ping!!

5 posted on 11/16/2002 6:57:09 AM PST by ecurbh
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To: ecurbh
Thanks for the RingPing!! I love Suite101.com!! There are some EXCELLENT articles there...just wish he had more discussing the palantir. He seems very inciteful.
6 posted on 11/16/2002 11:17:36 AM PST by Alkhin
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To: Alkhin
There are some EXCELLENT articles there...just wish he had more discussing the palantir. He seems very inciteful.

He certainly can be. Still, he's very series about Tolkien. ;-)

7 posted on 11/16/2002 11:22:17 PM PST by BradyLS
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To: JameRetief
An interesting article, and I guess there is probably more to Celeborn than we see, or are told by JRRT. Still... when Galadriel calls him "Celeborn the Wise", I always figured she was using it as a sarcastic nickname... you know, like the way a big fat guy is always nicknamed "Tiny".
8 posted on 11/17/2002 7:54:55 AM PST by Bear_in_RoseBear
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To: JameRetief
I just read this one and the Legolas one. Keep them coming Jame! ;^)
9 posted on 11/18/2002 3:01:31 PM PST by ksen
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To: JameRetief
The smartest character in the Fellowship, Gandalf, can't even figure out that Saruman has betrayed him. When was the last time Celeborn was captured by agents of the Enemy? Okay, maybe that's not fair to Gandalf. After all, someone has to be captured, and he is a convenient prisoner-type. He's all shifty-eyed and secretive -- it's a wonder Saruman didn't lock him up a thousand years earlier.

This is something that I have been meaning to ask since I just saw the extended version the other night. I wanted to read the entire trilogy before I watched the movies, so this was the first time I had viewed it in any form, btw. How did Gandalf get his staff back from Saruman? This certainly wasn't addressed in the movie, and it has been several months since I read this part, but in the movie, Saruman takes his staff when he imprisons Gandalf. Gandalf is then rescued by an eagle. Yet, after that, for example when he fights the Balrog, he definitely has his staff back. At what point did he steal it back from Saruman?

10 posted on 11/19/2002 9:15:50 AM PST by Charlie OK
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To: JameRetief; Overtaxed; ksen
Celeborn had to worry about keeping Lothlorien on the map for as long as possible.

Celeborn: Director of Lorien Homeland Insecurity

Separated at birth? Celeborn and Tom Ridge?

Seriously, though, thanks for the post, some interesting stuff here, JR....

11 posted on 11/19/2002 9:47:18 AM PST by rightwingreligiousfanatic
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To: Charlie OK; JenB; HairOfTheDog; 2Jedismom; ksen; Corin Stormhands
How did Gandalf get his staff back from Saruman?

I've often wondered about this myself. I don't think it is spelled out clearly in the book. And so I have concluded that he must have made a new one for himself. Any input from the experts? Jen, Hair, 2J????

12 posted on 11/19/2002 9:49:59 AM PST by rightwingreligiousfanatic
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: JameRetief
thanks for the help. Doesn't look like they're going to let us see those pictures, though! LOL!
14 posted on 11/19/2002 11:22:47 AM PST by Charlie OK
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To: JameRetief
Also, I guess the next question is, How and where did he get the new staff? I remember it was a very big deal when Gandalf later broke Saruman's staff. They don't seem to be too easy to come by...
15 posted on 11/19/2002 11:25:53 AM PST by Charlie OK
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To: Charlie OK
Someone on another thread suggested that maybe Elrond helped him get one or make one when he went back to Rivendell after defeating the balrog.

And someone else suggested he just went to Tolkientown.com and picked up a fresh one..... ;^)

C'mon down to Tolkien town!

16 posted on 11/19/2002 12:55:18 PM PST by rightwingreligiousfanatic
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To: rightwingreligiousfanatic
Someone on another thread suggested that maybe Elrond helped him get one or make one when he went back to Rivendell after defeating the balrog.

Well, at least in the movie, he already had it back by the time he faced the Balrog. He used it to bring down the bridge. I guess when he was in Rivendell the initial time, during the Council, was after Saruman but before Balrog, so I suppose that could be the case. I think I have the timeline right...

17 posted on 11/19/2002 1:11:51 PM PST by Charlie OK
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To: JameRetief
OK - So CouncilofElrond.com are kinda butt-heads about linking pictures. It is easy to block images from being linked. But that is not how they want to handle it. No... instead they want to use the same bandwidth it would take to host the image to post a smart aleck message instead. How obnoxious is that?
18 posted on 11/19/2002 1:16:15 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: rightwingreligiousfanatic; Charlie OK; Overtaxed; JenB
I think Gandalf probably remade his own staff... The staffs are things of wizards, I don't think that is an elvish art. I don't recall that we know how he got it back. I don't remember it being addressed in the book. OT.... is it in the letters anywhere?
19 posted on 11/19/2002 1:21:11 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: Charlie OK; rightwingreligiousfanatic; HairOfTheDog
Whoops.

Well, I will see about getting the pics up in a sec. In the meantime, I will get the Admin to pull that post.

20 posted on 11/19/2002 1:39:25 PM PST by JameRetief
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