The Despot Named Lincoln

Mises.org ^ | Tuesday, October 29, 2002 | David Gordon

[Colt .45]

'But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.'

Nowhere does this phrase from the Declaration of Independence say what kind of a government they had to set up. But lets move on ... you're just pissed because Lincoln waged an unjust and illegal war on the seceding Southern States and you can't disprove what I have posted before. Historians have researched the information ... and it is there! You and Walt ought to form your own little history company and call it "Dummies about Lincoln". Get the book I mentioned to you earlier, read it well, and then get back to me. By the way, its an out of print book but you can still obtain it, it was published in 1976 during the bicentennial.

[Colt .45]

"That has never been proven. It is just part of the neo-reb rant."

Man you're really getting weak now. Ever heard of Ex parte Merryman? That was the rebuke for taking away habeas corpus. 'Lincoln had taken the position that he had the right to suspend the writ without Congressional approval, and that he had the say on the final Constitutional question, not the court, and his power to make such a determination was a higher power than the Supreme Court. Lincoln thus put himself above the Congress, above the Supreme Court, and above the Constitution. He was an absolute ruler, like the tyrants of ancient Greece and the Caesars of Rome.'

The order to arrest Taney was given to US Marshal Lamon personally by Lincoln. The account of the plan to arrest the Chief Justice and the order for his arrest is confirmed by two trustworthy independent source of information - Lamon himself, in his personal papers in the Huntington Library's rare book and manuscript collection, and Professor Francis Lieber, author of the famous Lieber Code, which Lincoln endorsed. Lieber noted that Lincoln gave Marshal Lamon the arrest warrant for Taney along with permission to make the arrest. Both Lieber and Lamon were life long ardent unionists.

[Non-Sequitur]

Nowhere does this phrase from the Declaration of Independence say what kind of a government they had to set up. But lets move on ...

Nah let's stay there for a moment. Try reading the confederate constitution some time, it's pretty obvious Davis didn't. It is similar to the real one in that it requires the same three branches of government; legislative, executive, and judicial. Davis totally ignored the third branch. Laws and courts would just have gotten in his way as he nationalized industries, siezed private property, and pretty well pissed all over the states rights that the confederacy was supposed to have been founded on. Those are the facts, the dirty little southron secret that y'all are too terrified to debate on. Jefferson Davis was a criminal, a tyrant, the closest thing to a dictator this continent has seen. He had zero respect for the rule of law, no patience for legal niceties. Jail 'em and forget 'em. Government wants something, government takes if 'for the war effort'. And above all, slavery at all costs.

And unilateral secession as practiced by the confederacy was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled that in 1869.

[Colt .45]

Once again the pot is calling the kettle black!

"And unilateral secession as practiced by the confederacy was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled that in 1869."

Which merely proves that when the North won the war, the dream of American Liberty as envisioned by the Founders went down the toilet. Thanks to Lincoln we now have this behemoth in Washington that is overtly intrusive of our daily lives and liberties. No longer can States really determine their own destiny without cowtowing to Washington. The Founders never envisioned a government who provides welfare to so many. Who sets up educational curriculum standards for the children, or who has this labyrinth of byzantine type Tax Codes. No ... the Founders set it up with individual liberty being paramount, and States Rights being there to keep the Federal Government in check! Yes, you call Jeff Davis the tyrant, but in reality the tyrant who doomed us to everlasting enslavement to big government and taxes was LINCOLN! Honest Abe wasn't honest!

And while we're on the subject, the Southern States should've been able to determine for themselves whether or not slavery would've continued as an institution ... that was a part of their right of self-determination! It wasn't up to the Federal Government to determine that. Go back and re-read your Constitution and Federalist papers. You'll be amazed at what the Founders intended.

[Non-Sequitur]

Once again the pot is calling the kettle black!

How so? Did Lincoln disband the Supreme Court? Did Lincoln nationalize industries? Did Lincoln force farmers to turn over a percentage of their crop to the government 'for the war effort?' And most of all, was the government of Jefferson Davis what the founders had in mind when they wrote the real Constitution and the Federalist Papers?

[Colt .45]

No ... Woodrow Wilson was falling in line with a long string of Constitutional abusers that STARTED with Lincoln. Go research your facts son.

Just cause Lee surrendered don't mean I did!

[Colt .45]

Lincoln did the next most effective thing to disbanding the Supreme Court ... he completely ignored them. By the time Congress came back into session in 1861 Lincoln had things running the way he wanted them to be running ... and which Congressman in his right mind would stand against Lincoln when he could be jailed and brought before a Military Tribunal on some trumped up charge? Lincoln was not averse to doing that to those who disagreed with him. The word traitor was thrown around at every opportune moment by his administration. If you read the Constitution ... Article 1 Section 9 stated that only Congress with the approval of the Supreme Court could suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus. Nowhere in Article 2 which are the Duties of the Executive does it state that the President can decide on matters of law. When Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, he did so without any authorization from Congress and was castigated by the Chief Justice Roger Taney. Thereupon Lincoln issued a writ of arrest to US Marshal Lamon to apprehend Taney. Lamon never served it, but it was issued! Lincoln shut down all newpapers that didn't agree with his war, and spoke out against it! He violated the Constitution in declaring war against the South (something only Congress has the power to do per the Constitution). But seeing as how your response is always that has never been proven, you are willing to accept whatever Washington DC puts out as gospel.

There has been nothing but a continuous chain of abuses and infringements on the Constitution since Lincoln and his administration. So on that note of calling Jeff Davis the tyrant, you must prove that Lincoln wasn't one. But as we all know ... you can't. By the way, we will always disagree on this subject.

[Non-Sequitur]

Southron paranoia in full bloom again, I see. Lincoln did not ignore the Supreme Court. Issues affecting the Union conduct appeared before the court throughout the war, witness the Prize Cases that Walt talks about so much. People sentenced in the North by the military tribunals still had the chance to appeal their case all the way to the Supreme Court, witness Ex Parte Milligan. But down south the people that Davis tossed in the hoosegow stayed there and rotted because there was no legal system, there was no appeal, there was no protection against abuse by the Davis regime.

...which Congressman in his right mind would stand against Lincoln when he could be jailed and brought before a Military Tribunal on some trumped up charge?

That is nonsense and you know it, but you need something to justify your support of Davis and his actions. No doubt you are about to trot out Clemment Vallandigham to support your case. Never mind the fact that Vallandigham was a former congressman and deserved trial and punishment. Never mind the fact that Davis himself tossed John Minor Botts, a former congressman from Virginia, into jail for the duration for speaking out against the confederate government. That was OK because the south was nation-building, is that it?

Article 1 Section 9 stated that only Congress with the approval of the Supreme Court could suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus.

I question somethime whether you have ever even read the Constitution some times. That section does not say that only congress can suspend habeas corpus and it doesn't say that they need Supreme Court approval.

Thereupon Lincoln issued a writ of arrest to US Marshal Lamon to apprehend Taney. Lamon never served it, but it was issued!

No he didn't.

Lincoln shut down all newpapers that didn't agree with his war, and spoke out against it!

This is much more descriptive of southern actions than Northern. Lincoln was bedeviled by newspapers throughout the war, from Greely on down. None of those were shut down.

He violated the Constitution in declaring war against the South (something only Congress has the power to do per the Constitution).

Again, pure BS. You declare war against other nations, not rebellious parts of your own. No declaration of war was required.

So on that note of calling Jeff Davis the tyrant, you must prove that Lincoln wasn't one.

I need do nothing of the sort. You and your ilk have been calling Lincoln 'tyrant' since I started posting here, yet none of you offer any evidence that Davis wasn't one. On the contrary, I point out Davis's crimes and I'm criticized for trying to change the subject. Like I said, Jefferson Davis is the south's dirty little secret because every time you turn over a rock another one if his abuses slithers out. Y'all want to keep those rocks right where they are.

[Colt .45]

Man you got as many smarts as a box of rocks. Lamon's own personal papers stated the fact of who issued the warrant.

"I question somethime whether you have ever even read the Constitution sometimes. That section does not say that only congress can suspend habeas corpus and it doesn't say that they need Supreme Court approval."

For your perusal old son ... Article I pertains to the legislative branch of Government. Section 9 specifically states 'The Priveledge of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.' It never says "shall require it". And it was a matter of legislation to be decided by Congress! Now onto your assertion that the Supreme Court doesn't need to approve it. Habeas Corpus is a matter of law and in Article III, Section 2 it states 'The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution,the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority ...etcetra, etcetra' So as we see, the Supreme Court needed to decide whether or not it was lawful and Constitutional to suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus. The legislative makes law, the Supreme Court decides its Constitutionality. By suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus, Lincoln was making law ... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh NOT AUTHORIZED UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION!!!!

As for the rest of your dissertation of bovine scatology ... uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh YEEEEEEEEAAAH ... SURE ... whatever. Its your story, tell it like you want. Doesn't mean I'll ever buy into it though.

[Non-Sequitur]

Man you got as many smarts as a box of rocks. Lamon's own personal papers stated the fact of who issued the warrant.

But his claim is not backed up by a single shred of evidence. Yet you believe it without question. Let me ask you this. Here is a link to a website that quotes from a book claiming that Robert Lee whipped his slaves and had brine poured in the wounds. By your standards this must be true. The author claimed to have seen it. Why would be lie? So what do you think of Lee now?

Article I pertains to the legislative branch of Government.

Very good. I'll let you in on a secret. Article II pertains to the Executive branch and nowhere does it say that the president cannot suspend habeas corpus. Habeas Corpus is a matter of law and in Article III, Section 2 it states....

And if the matter comes before the Supreme Court then it would rule on it. But the Supreme Court does not rule on every piece of legislation passed or every act of the president. It only rules on those that come before it and Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus was never taken up by the full court. So we don't know for certain if his actions were Constitutional or not.

While we're on the subject of Constitutions, Article III pertains to the Judicial branch and mandates a Supreme Court. Amazingly enough there is also an article 3 in the confederate constitution but somehow no supreme court ever appeared. So when when the confederacy suspended habeas corpus there was no court to rule on it. So by your own definition I guess Davis was acting illegally.

[Aurelius]

"And unilateral secession as practiced by the confederacy was illegal. The Supreme Court ruled that in 1869 [eight years after secession.]"

When you resign from the club, you are no longer subject to the club's bylaws. What is the mental deficiency which afflicts you and renders you incapable of understanding this?

[Aurelius]

I have now pin-pointed where you guys are. Too late for this Hallow'een. Get you next year. Hope you like pumpkins.

[Aurelius]

"Jefferson Davis was a criminal, a tyrant, the closest thing to a dictator this continent has seen. "

You know Non-Seq, every time I think that I have seen the height of the absurdities of which you are capable you exhibit a greater one."...the closest thing to a dictator this continent has seen.

Do you not understand that our continent comprises more than the territorial United States? But let's assume that you don't. Have you never heard of Abraham Lincoln ,Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson? If you are indeed so ignorant of your country's history, perhaps you would have a chance of recovery from sueing the school boards that administered the schools that you attended. Just a thought; it might make a little more room on the internet for serious people if you could be so diverted.

[JMJ333]

Same old, same old I see. :o)

[JMJ333]

Oh, I don't know. I once saw someone here compare Lincoln to Lenin. Now THAT'S absurd...that and the endless posting of large flags...which I notice NS has taken to doing in defiance.

He's quite charming actually.

[Non-Sequitur]

Some things never change, dear lady.

[Non-Sequitur]

Have you never heard of Abraham Lincoln ,Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson?

I've heard of every one of them. And none of them crapped over the rule of law to the extent Davis did. Every one of them was elected to office in the first place and won contested elections to remain in office, something you guy Davis never did. Tyranny can come in many forms but Your Mr. Davis raised it to new heights. I have a very good understanding of our nation's history, I just don't view it with the same, odd interpretation that you seem to.

[Non-Sequitur]

I have now pin-pointed where you guys are.

I'll help. I'm in south Johnson County in Kansas between College Avenue to the north and 119th Street to the south, Antioch is to the west and Metcalf is to the east. That give you a one square mile area to look in. It's a white colonial with blue shutters and we gave out Snickers bars last week. Hope that narrows it down for you.