Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/26/02 to ???

[Sherlock]

She is posing the same thoughtful questions that many of us wonder about.

With this testimony I can confidently rest my case.

[freedox]

KING: Well Lois, can we say then that the initial stories about the kidnapper threatening her were wrong?

E. SMART: You know, it's easy to me to perceive that there's a threat there. And, you know, the rest of it's really in the hands of the police and what they've talked to her. We just -- we really try to stay away from it as much as possible.

Ed's statement, in combination with other statements and events, makes me further question the "armed gunman" story. "It's easy to me to PERCEIVE that there's a threat there"?? If there is a gun involved, the threat is THERE......it doesn't have to be PERCEIVED. I think that whoever took Elizabeth from the house was indeed PERCEIVED as a threat to Elizabeth.......however, I seriously doubt that there was a physical threat. My suspicion is that the gun was added to the story in order to qualify for the Rachel Alert system. I am becoming more and more convinced that Elizabeth left the house willingly with someone who is PERCEIVED as a threat to a vulnerable, naive young girl.

The questions that remain in my mind are: WHO added the gun to the story? Are the police aware of it, and if so WHEN did they become aware of it? IN WHAT WAY was this person perceived to be a threat to Elizabeth? (And, of course, WHO THE HELL WAS HE???)

[varina davis]

And, of course, WHO THE HELL WAS HE???

Possibly someone who jogged away with her until they reached his motorbike or cycle?

[GovernmentShrinker]

Why would they question MK when:

1) Law enforcement authorities had emphasized to them the importance of not doing this, as amateur questioning could inadvertently taint her memories, and interfere with ability of the professional child forensic psychologist(s) to get the best possible information from her, and

2) One or more law enforcement agents was living in the Smart home to monitor various aspects of the case, such as making sure the witness wasn't coached or subjected to potentially leading questions, and probably also in the home of the grandparent(s?) with whom MK was placed for a few days?

Why would the Smarts deliberately defy the instructions of the competent and diligent law enforcement personnel who were knocking themselves out trying to identify the kidnapper and find Elizabeth? Especially when their defiance would almost certainly be detected, and would tend to cast suspicion on them?

[freedox]

"Possibly someone who jogged away with her until they reached his motorbike or cycle?"

To be honest, varina, I have wondered if those two "training runs" that Elizabeth took in the days immediately prior to her abduction were possibly related to such a plan. (But of course I've been at this so long, there's not much that hasn't crossed my mind.......LOL!!)

[Sherlock]

I know these are big questions to you and your like minded posters but they're not. It's interesting I've been reading for weeks you people theorizing maybe there wasn't a gun. Why do you waste your time like this?

The originally story was the gunman spoke to MK and threatened her not to tell her parents and later this was changed to the gunman threatened Elizabeth if she made any noise. The discussion about perceiving a threat means MK felt threatened regardless of whether the gunman actually made the threat to Elizabeth or MK. We've had posters on this board say they were taken at gunpoint and they responded to the kidnapper's demand to remain silent so no one would be hurt.

I've also seen this discussion on why the police would let the neighbors check around the neighborhood since the kidnapper was armed. Who could possibly think the kidnapper would still be hanging around the neighborhood 4 hours after the kidnapping? Puhleeze.

[freedox]

Do you have a source for those two facts, GS? I don't remember ever hearing or reading that, and I'd like to see exactly what the instructions/circumstances were. Thanks.

[varina davis]

Why would the Smarts deliberately defy the instructions of the competent and diligent law enforcement personnel who were knocking themselves out trying to identify the kidnapper and find Elizabeth? Especially when their defiance would almost certainly be detected, and would tend to cast suspicion on them?

Because that's what normal human being loving parents would do? That's why. It goes against every grain of human nature for them to have not questioned her immediately and at length -- unless they already pretty much knew the answers.

[Sherlock]

Excellent post. And if the parents did ask her questions privately their public posture would have to be that they've never asked her anything.

[varina davis]

To be honest, varina, I have wondered if those two "training runs" that Elizabeth took in the days immediately prior to her abduction were possibly related to such a plan.

It's a worthy query, freedox, especially since that was one of the first things LE looked at, the girl's jogging route the night before the disappearance.

[Sherlock]

I don't remember ever hearing or reading that, and I'd like to see exactly what the instructions/circumstances were. Thanks.

It is a commonly known fact the parents were told not to discuss the kidnapping with MK to preserve her testimony. GovernmentShrinker's explanation is the precise legal explanation. The parents could not question MK and I'm surprised so many of you have forgotten that.

[varina davis]

It is a commonly known fact the parents were told not to discuss the kidnapping with MK to preserve her testimony.

Any normal parents would disregard such advice and advise LE that they are the parents and want to learn all information possible that could lead to the return of their daughter.

[varina davis]

Furthermore, this huge unbrella of "protection" over MK is getting old and tired. I could understand it if she was 4 or 5 years old, but not with a bright (from all accounts) 9-year-old who apparently spent a lot of time with an older and wiser sister.

[trussell]

Self Ping

[Devil_Anse]

We either believe the parents were questioning Mary K. some, or we believe they just didn't talk to her about it. I believe that they obviously had a conversation (or more than one) with her the night of the abduction, b/c obviously she told them something about Elizabeth being missing. Otherwise they'd have slept on till their normal waking hour.

If we believe that the Smarts were talking periodically to Mary K. all along, then we have to believe that the police are not being truthful about having had complete access to her. B/C if the police were given 100% free rein with Mary K., then I do think they'd have told the family not to get into it with her b/c of the power of suggestion.

I don't think the police would have lied about having access to Mary K. I think they'd have been really irritated if her parents had kept her from them, and it would have showed in their public actions.

It appears that the Smarts were not afraid to have police and Jean Boylan put Mary K. through the mill. This speaks well for them. (Of course there is always the possibility that the whole thing with the man was staged for the benefit of planting false "knowledge" in Mary K.'s mind. But that would be so elaborate a scheme as to be almost beyond belief.)

There is no doubt that the Smarts have been very evasive about what Mary K. has said about this whole thing. But Lois was supposedly in most or all of the interviews of Mary K., so she must know most of what she said. Clearly, they do not want to tell the public what info was really gotten out of Mary K. I wonder if this will change now. B/C from that recent article, it seems the Smarts are thinking that the main suspect is now dead. (Or, for those who suspect the Smarts, they have finally gotten what they wanted all along: to get away with it, and not have anyone coming after whoever did it.)

[Sherlock]

Any normal parents would disregard such advice and advise LE that they are the parents and want to learn all information possible that could lead to the return of their daughter.

I refer you to post 64 for the legal situation. I appreciate you would go off on your own but normal parents having a child kidnapped at gunpoint from their home in the middle of the night would obey the law and realize their hope of getting their child back was with law enforcement and they would cooperate with them. They weren't dealing with some Mormon bishop here, they were dealing with some crazy ex-con with a gun.

[Devil_Anse]

There's no doubt that those who thought Westerfield innocent have been thoroughly discredited. There are some real bombshells out there about him, and the jury didn't even know about those bombshells, yet they still found enough to convict him and even give him the death penalty. If you add in the bombshells to the trial evidence, it really becomes overwhelming. And the jury didn't just hurry through it, it's clear they really made an effort to get it right.

But the parents of Danielle were such easy marks. Some people believe in "karma." (I don't, really.) That is, here were the Van Dams doing all this sleazy stuff, and then all of a sudden, this horrible thing happened to them. I believe their grief is real, and I am sure they are suffering more than anyone can imagine.

But they were behaving like real sleazebags. People who behave the way they reportedly did are obviously not putting their children first. They could have gotten themselves killed by inviting all these people into their bedroom--it wouldn't be the first time something like that happened. How unfair that it was an innocent little girl who got killed instead.

[Devil_Anse]

Chances are the Smarts were satisfied that they'd gotten their own chance to know everything they could get from Mary K., from what she told them the night it happened.

They didn't need to question her further on their own, b/c Lois was in on several of the police interviews of her, so Lois no doubt knows everything Mary K. has to tell.

[varina davis]

It appears that the Smarts were not afraid to have police and Jean Boylan put Mary K. through the mill. This speaks well for them.

They hardly had a choice, unless they wanted to look like real losers. Nothing wrong with them giving LE and Boylan access to MK, I just don't and will never believe they didn't also grill her thoroughly before anyone else did.

[varina davis]

they were dealing with some crazy ex-con with a gun.

Extremely doubtful.