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Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

Posted on 09/16/2002 11:10:48 PM PDT by Utah Girl

Just thought I would start a new thread.


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To: jengaio
Varina, will you please say what you mean about MK and the shared bedroom and who she's sleeping with now? I can't figure out what you're getting at.

I would like to elaborate, but as I said before, I really don't want to go there on this thread. Too many closed minds and too many posters pretending they don't "understand" the realities of life.

Being one of the brighter guests on this forum, however, I think you probably know.

21 posted on 09/17/2002 1:22:31 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: Utah Girl
The following was found on alt.christnet. (WARNING: Very long). I would appreciate your commentary, refutation, and thoughts. I know you are a well-informed Mormon. It seems pretty far-out to me, and reeks of propaganda much like the kind found on these sites regarding my own religion.

Mormon Mystery

Returning to the sad case of Elizabeth Smart, many commentators have> noted that there are some strange elements in the case that do not add> up. The story of the girl's little sister changed mysteriously (first> we were told the kidnapper threatened her and then later this was> reported to be false).

Then there is the fact that in a very wealthy household it is odd that> there was no security system, and/or that it was not armed. Most $1.7> million homes have security systems nowadays. There also seems to be> an odd note in the relationship between the father and the uncle.

As of this writing, the child has not been found. Now most experts> are quietly saying she may never be found - at least alive. The> family are prominent Mormons within their community, which places> another light on things.

Beneath the surface and the attention on the handyman, Ricci, are> disturbing currents. There are allegations of involvement of> Elizabeth's dad and uncle in some sort of homosexual ring.> Supposedly, lots of "gay porn" was found on both men's computers.> These allegations come from a dubious source, the NATIONAL ENQUIRER,> but so far have not been effectively refuted.

Of course, homosexuality is a HUGE sin within Mormonism. If the> tabloid was printing lies, you would think there would be lawsuits.> It is not clear how this would relate to Elizabeth's disappearance.> If her dad and uncle were closet homosexuals, that would not be a> likely reason for them to abduct her, a girl - unless, of course, she> had found out about it somehow.

But even that seems a bit farfetched. With the admitted value Mormons> place on family and human life, it is hard to imagine a father or> uncle killing a young girl just because she found out they were> bisexuals. temple Mormons. I have not been able to determine this for certain,> but it is likely. There is a sinister side to the LDS temple> "culture" which is little understood and discussed even less.

An Elect Lady?

Mormon temple rites are the most sacred (and secret) elements within> the LDS faith. This is partly because they are quite bizarre and> heavily influenced by Masonry and occult doctrines.[2] This is so> much the case that many LDS people are so startled by the rituals to> the point of not returning - ever.

Having said that, contrary to 19th century sensational reports, in the> normal temple ceremony, there is nothing improper going on (other than> occult foolishness). However, especially in the Salt Lake temple,> there have been numerous, credible allegations of very strange rituals> going on in the temple either after hours or in the deep bowels of the> subbasements of the temple.[3]

I have personally interviewed two people, a woman and an adolescent> boy who allege that they were taken into the temple subbasements,> which run several levels deep. Here they report being forced to> participate in rituals which are more overtly luciferian in> character. These rites, remarkably similar in the way they were> described, include sexual magic, blood sacrifice, and homosexuality.

Neither interviewee alleged that there was anyone murdered, just that> blood was spilt ritually and sprinkled on the participants.> Supposedly, very high Mormons (apostles, etc.) were present and in> their temple robes.

A different piece of the puzzle comes from our own experience. Sharon> and I were "sealed"[4] in the Salt Lake temple ourselves in 1981.> Because of certain tokens and keywords we had been instructed to give> at the temple by our occult teachers, we were granted an audience with> one of the twelve apostles of the church.[5]

In that interview, my wife recounted a vision she had seen of a rite> in the temple. In it, a young girl (about the age of the Smart girl)> was stretched out on what looked like the lushly upholstered altar of> a temple sealing room. She was barely clothed (wearing just a> diaphanous white gown) and people in priesthood robes were standing> around her raising their arms in the "PAY-LAY-ALE" gesture[6] which> then was part of the temple rites.

The critical element here, other than the highly charged sexual nature> of the ritual, was that instead of proclaiming Pay-Lay-Ale, these> temple workers were chanting, "Lucifer, hear us!" My wife related> this vision which she had seen and then asked the apostle what it> meant.

He replied in the most serious tone that this vision was true and that> Lucifer was worshipped in the innermost circles of the temple.> Smiling, he told my wife that this was evidence that she was obviously> an "elect lady."

Both of us were then told by him that if we moved out to Utah, Sharon> might be eligible to serve in a "special" capacity in temple service.> But this would only happen if we were true and faithful to our> covenants, he said, and if we kept this secret and never, discussed it> with anyone except a general authority of the church.[7]

Of course, God had other plans, and we were not economically able to> move out there right away. Less than three years later, I got saved> and we began to work our way out of the LDS church.

The point of this account? Well, from this and other reports and> experiences too numerous to recount, it appears that - like in any> secret society - there are layers of knowledge in Mormonism. Some LDS> are "in the know," especially in Utah. These LDS, often from old> pioneer families, have access to more occult knowledge and power than> 98% of the rest of the church. They know secrets of Druidism and> other ancient Crafts.

Women from these families, and their teenaged kids, are used in the> temple in some way very similar to the sexual magick practiced in high> Masonry and Illuminism. I am not saying that these young people are> necessarily being sexually abused, except in a broad sense. But they> are being used as channels of occult power!

Another Fanny Alger?

In the light of this, it is possible that Elizabeth Smart has vanished> into the bowels of the temple. She is an example of the ideal Mormon> "master race" (blonde, blue-eyed, talented). She might have been> tapped for this "great honor," almost like a Catholic girl a century> ago being sent to the convent.

Add to this the allegations of homosexuality on the part of her dad> and uncle, it is possible that they are in on the ruse. Being gay is> very wrong in Mormonism, unless you are doing it in the temple in a> magick rite!

If this is true, and there is - of course - no solid evidence that it> is true, then Elizabeth would be just the latest girl to be> "sacrificed" on the altar of Mormonism. Joseph Smith, Jr., the> founder of the LDS church, took a girl about the same age as the Smart> child as his first plural wife. Her name was Fanny Alger. Another> one of his wives as the exact age as the Smart girl, 14! Her name was> Helen M. Kimball.[8]

Though it is well-concealed, the LDS faith is a highly sexualized> religion. It is founded on principles of an "eternal increase of> seed." It is similar to an ancient fertility cult.

If this is true, where is Elizabeth Smart? It is hard to imagine, in> this day and age, that it was the original intention to have girls> disappear forever into temple service. Such "vanishings" in the> clannish world of Mormonism would be noticed.

The norm, as we understand it, would be for her to go to the temple> for "worship" occasionally and then return to her family. However, it> is possible that she was terrified and demoralized by finding out what> was expected of her in the temple and "lost it." LDS kids are raised> to be highly moral, and the cognitive dissonance between her> upbringing and the secret rites of the temple might have been too much> for her.

She may have had to be restrained or (God forbid) even killed to keep> the secrets of worship within the temple. Possibly she was even> accidentally hurt or killed trying to get away. The LDS leadership> guards its secrets very jealously.

And her parents? Well, if they are good Mormons, especially temple> LDS, then they have sworn dire oaths to keep the secrets of the temple> and not to speak anything which would cause reproach to the church.> They also swore to the Law of Consecration, which means that> everything that is theirs belongs to the Church. This certainly could> be interpreted to include their daughter.

Our prayer is that Elizabeth is still alive and that in fact we are> wrong about all this. However, there is circumstantial evidence that> the Church (which has powerful influence over the police in Utah as> well) may well have her. In any event, she is a tragic casualty of> our nation's slide into un-Biblical chaos. Our children may well be> paying the price for our neglect of God and His Word. More than ever,> we need to pray for our children and our nation!

Endnotes:
1. O'Reilly Factor (TV program), FOX News channel, 7/16/02.
2. See MORMONISM'S TEMPLE OF DOOM by Bill Schnoebelen and Jim Spencer> (1987) for a full discussion of this, amply documented.
3. For a fuller discussion of this, see the video GODMAKERS II.
4. Sealing here means a special LDS wedding rite in which a couple> are sealed for "time and eternity," a marriage held to be forever and> to give "eternal increase of seed."

5. In the church, apostles are at the top of the hierarchy. There> are 12 apostles, plus two counselors and the Prophet (each also> apostles). For the record, we met with Elder James Faust.
6. PAY-LAY-ALE was in the temple rites for over a century.> Supposedly, in the ancient Adamic language, it means "O God, hear the> words of my mouth." The gesture with it is almost identical to the> Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress, Several Christian scholars> demonstrated that the words could be translated in fractured Hebrew as> "Marvelous Lucifer" or "Marvelous [false] god." This is one of> several elements in the temple rite which were mysteriously removed in> 1991 after the publication of our TEMPLE OF DOOM book in 1987 and> Chuck Sackett's outstanding work, WHAT'S GOING ON IN THERE? earlier.
7. A decade after this interview, a news story exploded about> widespread Satanic abuse in the LDS church in the Salt Lake region. A> report, issued by Bishop Pace, a presiding bishop of the whole church,> indicated that there appeared to be more than 800 cases of children> being abused in church settings, by high level church officials and> even members of the celebrated Tabernacle Choir. Since then, the> story has been allowed to quietly die.
8. Todd Compton, IN SACRED LONELINESS, Signature Books, 1998, p.> 487.
http://www.withoneaccord.org/

My Note: This was posted by someone who calls himself TomServo. I think I have seen posts by him here at FreeRepublic.

22 posted on 09/17/2002 1:28:43 PM PDT by Palladin
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To: varina davis
Please go there. I don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
23 posted on 09/17/2002 1:32:15 PM PDT by Utah Girl
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To: Palladin
I will take the time in a couple of hours to refute this article, smear by smear, and lie by lie. It is NOT true. This guy has embellished the old lies from the days of Fawn Brodie (No Man Knows my History.) One example of the lies is that the anti-Mormons back in Brigham Young's day would say that the Mormons would kidnap young virgins, take them to the Salt Lake Temple to do unspeakable things to them, and the girls would escape by jumping out of a window in the Salt Lake temple, and jumping into the Great Salt Lake. Um, the Great Salt Lake is miles away from the temple. Suffice it to say, those "highly sexualized fertility" rites do NOT happen in the temple, nor anywhere else in the LDS religion/theology. I'll be back with more stuff later.
24 posted on 09/17/2002 1:41:13 PM PDT by Utah Girl
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To: Utah Girl
Please go there. I don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

I can't, Utah Girl, you just wouldn't consider it, and I'm not in the mood to be trashed by the usual suspects (not you) on the board who are waiting to pounce.

25 posted on 09/17/2002 1:50:49 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: Palladin
A wise man once said, "Shun those who would build themselves up by tearing others down." I would suggest this as good advise to "alt.christnet".

A question would be, why do they go about tearing down a religion based on known lies, whether it be lies about your church or other churches?

I don't think this is what was taught by Jesus.

By the way, the article reeks of falsehoods! What a pity it was republished here.
26 posted on 09/17/2002 1:57:27 PM PDT by klamath
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To: Utah Girl
Thanks, Utah Girl. I think this needs to be refuted, as it is traveling around the net at a furious pace.
27 posted on 09/17/2002 1:57:43 PM PDT by Palladin
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To: klamath
I published it here because it is being published all over the net. It needs refutation, as I said, and Utah Girl, sandude, and Jolly are just the ones to tackle the project.

I personally don't believe a word of it. It is the product of the conspiracy theorists who see young virgins on every altar and the devil under every bed. When he got to the part about his wife's "vision", I started humming the Twilight Zone theme.

Besides, there's no new news to discuss this week in the case, so why not initiate a lively discussion on how conspiracy theories and urban legends seem to sprout up about all these missing children? Remember The Don and his theory about Middle Eastern sheiks having these girls stolen for their harems?
28 posted on 09/17/2002 2:04:17 PM PDT by Palladin
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To: varina davis
I know what you mean and I believe that it is sick that people even think that way, always with minds in the gutter and defend it with statements like, "realities of life". I'm sure you are just repeating what others have said though.
29 posted on 09/17/2002 2:05:12 PM PDT by klamath
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To: Palladin
I'm supposed to be gone but this one is just too tempting!

Let me just say that I have been in many temples around the world and can assure you that nothing like this goes on in them! There is nothing sexual or sensual that takes place there. http://www.lds.org/temples/home/0,11273,1896-1,00.html is an excellent site to learn more. I don't know how to link it but you can go to www.lds.org and find out much about temples!



30 posted on 09/17/2002 2:19:25 PM PDT by landerwy
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To: Palladin
By the way we view it more as temples are sacred not secret!
31 posted on 09/17/2002 2:22:01 PM PDT by landerwy
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To: landerwy
Thanks, landerwy. I have to leave now, too, but will be back later to read your link and UG's remarks.
32 posted on 09/17/2002 2:27:24 PM PDT by Palladin
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To: Palladin
Oh yeah! lets blame that morman church for the disappearance of girls and throw those polgys in with them. But lets not blame criminals that like sawed off shotguns and the stream of sex offenders, no there not gulty!

Ill tell you this, if infact any of the smarts had something to do with it, it will be the smarts fault not the mormans. Sorry, but all the morman bashing will not get elizabeth back only people that truly care will find her.

Why is there all this bashing going on? Is it because she is a morman girl and so its those weird mormans envolved?
I cant believe people can complain that she was taken because of her religion but we cant blame other girls that are missing because of their parents life style.
If anything maybe that is what needs to be really looked at is her parents life style. Parents are suppose to protect there children at all cost, why wasnt elizabeth protected. Time and time again we posters keep bring things up that dont add up, ie garage door left open, alarm not set at night, criminals hired for repairs on house....

If it is a family member they have no right to call themselves mormans and will be dealt with swiftly from the church. (all religions have bad seeds)

Im a true blooded morman LDS and all that hoopla is just hoopla trying to steer people in the wrong direction. (have you ever thought that the person who took elizabeth might be behind all this bashing and dredging up all the antimorman crap (before you say it I know that others are doing it too, but I cant help wonder who started it with the concern of elizabeth.
Im glad these people arent on this forum, they are very closed minded and to think just because someone says I have a friend that has a friend that said this about the temple. Dont believe it! Like, I tell everyone who is curious about the goings on with mormans is to get involved and see just what is going on, (you dont have to join our church to be involved.) you would be surprised I bet.

I will tell you this, if that hoopla was true I and a whole bunch like me would have nothing to do with this religion. Remember your religion is the church you go to. Your faith is whom you believe in. I could go to another religion and still have my faith. I think some people get this mixed up or think they are one in the same.

Sorry just had to comment on all of that crap!
33 posted on 09/17/2002 2:50:12 PM PDT by scaredkat
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To: varina davis
Earlier, b/f you guys started going on and on, almost in self-parody, about Elizabeth's pajamas and (snicker!) toenail color, for Gawd's sake, I had said that I thought it was a shame that a poor kid, troubled or not, couldn't at least be safe in her own bedroom to ponder the mysteries of life and of growing up. You responded by saying "Oh brother."

To your ridiculous defense of a self-absorbed addict, your inexplicable attachment to his also-addicted (I'd be willing to bet) wife of 7 months, and your portrayal of these two as a Love Affair to rival Scarlett and Rhett--to that I say, OH, BROTHER!

I am willing to at least consider the worst in any person known in this investigation, just as a hypothesis for the purpose of trying to understand what really happnened. You seem to be willing to do the same--except when it comes to your almost cult-like following of Ricci.
34 posted on 09/17/2002 3:14:21 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Palladin
Interesting article, Palladin. I think I got the gist of it--all except the part where they allege that LDS worship that international soccer star, Pele.
35 posted on 09/17/2002 3:23:36 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Palladin
I have just intercepted the following communication!!

From: L. Ron Hubbard, Beyond The Ken of Mankind

To: The Mormon High Command, SLC

The jig is up. Palladin has found us out! Dump all Proctor & Gamble stock immediately!

36 posted on 09/17/2002 3:27:44 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Palladin
Hey, Pal--While Utah Girl is furiously zapping articles into cyberspace to correct "Tom Servo's" smear job on LDS, why'nt you get out there and defend our own church?

I mean, since you mentioned URBAN LEGENDS (!) it would be a good idea to let the world hear our complete refutation of all those Serious Writings (by really-together people like this "Tom Servo") that claim that:

1. Catholics worship the Virgin Mary

2. Catholics worship a whole pantheon of lesser gods, called "saints"

3. Catholics have a fertility cult of their own, centered around the Virgin Mother, Mary

4. The election of JFK was the lynchpin of a Catholic plot to take over the United States

5. Jesuits secretly worship Satan

6. There is always a secret underground tunnel between a rectory and any nearby convent

7. The Gunpowder Plot (England, 1605) was part of a huge plot by Catholics to take over England and kill Protestant babies.


37 posted on 09/17/2002 3:43:34 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: scaredkat
Well-put, Scaredkat. People who believe all these outrageous conspiracy theories that are literally all over the net, and which cover just about every organization (real and imaginary) known to man, are the same type of people who believe that for every e-mail you send, Bill Gates will donate a nickel to charity.
38 posted on 09/17/2002 3:50:06 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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To: Utah Girl
Utah Girl, I forgot to thank you for adding me to the list to be notified of the new thread. Thanks! It's great to be included!
39 posted on 09/17/2002 4:37:42 PM PDT by Devil_Anse
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator


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