Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/9/02 to ???

[stlnative]

New thread...

[scaredkat]

"key witness" thats what they said and I believe it too.

Edmunds although hes got problems. Hes a watcher. He knows things. The clue in this is, there has been no response from police about him since he was brought back to utah. They said he is cooperating and has given them key information. (He is being protected.) He knows who took her. Why doesnt he say certain things because in fear, okay so riccis dead now and still we have no word from him, another clue, whos on the outside and is watching now! Who is edmunds really scared of?

[stlnative]

Since your in the area of SLC, Do me (or us) a favor and drop a call to the local BBB and see if Mr. Moul has a file with them. I am curious to know if this guy has no complaints or has huge file of complaints on him for poor service.

I am also curious about the lot the cars sit on while they are waiting for repair or waiting to be picked up. Is his lot fenced in or is it fully open?
I also want to know if he has any full blooded americans working for him.

Another thing is it possible that Ricci knows someone that works for Moul's shop, you know a buddy or maybe a relative that was a buddy to Ricci?

[varina davis]

Escambia County

Where is Escambia County????

[Devil_Anse]

What? You wouldn't leave your car at Neth's? But..but, scaredkat, they've got an internet directory listing and everything! /slight sarcasm

Okay, okay. Let's face it. Auto shop owners are not known for always being 100% on the up-and-up, in my experience, anyway.

I'm sitting here thinking of the various auto shops I've used. I must admit, more often than not, I've found felons or people I was sure were felons, involved with auto work--especially auto body work. I can think of 3 different shops right off the bat where I knew there was a felon working there. Surprised Ricci didn't dabble in auto repair.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that Neth's had any such people working there. I have no idea and no personal knowledge of Neth's.

[Devil_Anse]

"You are the elephant behind the curtain. You have intimate details of every player in this case..."

Varina, this post of yours has arrested my attention. (I might add that my attention is desperately trying to raise bail.) Should I ever gain the inside knowledge that you impute to me in your post, I assure you that I will use it for the good. I will also fill you in on the inner workings of Uncle Tom's mind, right down to the type of toothpaste he selects.

[Devil_Anse]

ROFLMAO!!!!

[Devil_Anse]

Re: Better Business Bureau inquiry, auto repair shop.

Excellent questions, I would second that request of yours to scaredkat.

If Moul's shop is like many auto repair shops I've encountered, we will have to wait about 24 hours b/f scaredkat gets through listening to the litany of BBB complaints, and can return here.

I, for one, think it highly likely that Ricci maybe knew some felon or other who worked for his favorite auto repair shop. As for Ricci carefully removing items from jeep b/f leaving, I am suspicious of the big bags, of course. But his removing the posthole digger is perhaps just smart practice, IMO, since I once had some tools stolen from the trunk of my car after leaving it to be fixed at a body shop.

[Devil_Anse]

Do you think it possible that Ricci had taken out a loan on his jeep, and maybe the jeep was removed from Moul's shop by a repo man? I know this wouldn't explain Ricci's bringing it back on the 8th, but if the part about someone surreptitiously removing the jeep on May 30th is true, that would sure fit in with the sort of things repo men are capable of. Even the call from "Mrs. Ricci" would fit in with a repo scenario, since it is a fact that repo people have at times used such deceptions to help them in their work.

[stlnative]

maybe but doubtful... On your thoughts, Ricci may have made good on the "loan" after the repo and returned the Jeep to the shop after he paid off his late car loan debt.

We have to think about who had a KEY to that Jeep while it was at the shop, Ricci probably had a spare... there was a set keys stolen and floating around... maybe someone in the Smart family had a spare key... and the Repair Shop had a key. (Jeeps only have one key... one key does everything)

[stlnative]

late car loan debt (should be car title loan)

[Devil_Anse]

How about this?

There might be any number of shady people ("loan sharks" or whatever) from whom Ricci may have borrowed money. Or he may have bought heroin on credit and failed to pay. Suppose Ricci borrowed/bought heroin in this way, and some sleazy character demanded the title and a set of keys to the jeep as collateral? Suppose Ricci never paid what he owed Mr. Sleaze, and Mr. Sleaze called in the loan by having someone "repossess" Ricci's jeep?

Might this explain Ricci's flat refusal to explain the jeep's absence? You wouldn't want to tell the police, "hey, I bought drugs from this guy and didn't pay him, he had kept my jeep title as security for my payment for the drugs, and I never paid him, so he repossessed my jeep." Of course the police would not rest till they got the name of the drug dealer from Ricci, so they could check out whether this story was true.

You wouldn't want to tell the police the above, b/c then you would be naming the name of a DRUG TRAFFICKER to police. The crime of narcotics trafficking can really draw a bad sentence--life in some places, even life without parole. Ricci might VERY EASILY be killed for divulging such a thing to police.

My scenario would include this: that after Mr. Sleaze, the narcotics trafficker, had "repossessed" Ricci's jeep by surreptitiously taking it off Moul's lot on May 30, Ricci somehow got the money to pay off his debt to Mr. Sleaze, and paid it, and was given his jeep back. He would then use it for whatever he used it for, and would have been able to take the jeep back to Moul's on June 8.

[stlnative]

After thinking a few minutes longer on your question. I think someone would have came forward in the media spot light if they made a car title loan to Ricci... especially if Ricci was late on paying off that title loan. I believe when you do this type of loan on a car title you just leave your clean and open car title with them and then sign a contract. The contract & open title just helps them advance faster on getting ownership of your car if you do not payoff your loan. If you just signed a contract and did not turn over your title to them, I think it would take the loaner longer to get the vehicle.

[Devil_Anse]

I really do think maybe the refusal to name a narcotics trafficker (very dangerous people) to whom he owed money, to police, may explain Ricci's failure to explain what happened to the jeep.

And to add some less believable (IMO) innuendo to that scenario, how about this:

Ricci, sitting in his cell at the prison, finally tells his lawyer (in confidence) the truth about the narcotics trafficker, explaining what really happened to the jeep. Perhaps "the walls have ears" in the little prison conference room where Ricci meets with and talks with his lawyer. Perhaps word gets back to Mr. Narcotics Trafficker (through a crooked prison guard or whatever) that Ricci has told at least one person the name of Mr. Narcotics Trafficker. While Mr. Narcotics Trafficker knows Ricci is not the kind of guy to snitch, he still feels angry/threatened, b/c for all he knows, this lawyer of Ricci's might tell the police about all this.

Ricci somehow gets access to some drug while in his cell at Salt Lake County jail, where he would have been housed directly before and after his court appearance (that last court appearance, right b/f he died.) Being an addict, he can't resist. (Yes, they can get drugs in prison/jail.) The drug is either 1) a much stronger or purer form of heroin than Ricci's system is used to, especially after being in jail, or 2) has poison or warfarin in it. Ricci's system can't take it; he develops bleeding in the brain, and dies.

Any/all persons who have dealt with this narcotics dealer, and who know Ricci dealt with him, sit up and take notice. They think to themselves, boy, I'LL never ever rat on Mr. Narcotics Trafficker--look what happened to THAT guy!!

[Devil_Anse]

Yes, even if the loan/repo person was one of those sleazy "pawn your title" places, those places apparently are doing business within the law. (Though they are still sleazy.) So there would be a paper trail, and I agree such a person/company would probably come forward.

But what if Ricci's borrowing, or buying on credit with jeep title as collateral, wasn't the legal type? What if it was a deal with a narcotics trafficker? NO WAY is some narcotics trafficker going to come forward and clear up the mystery, b/c narcotics trafficking can land a person in jail for FOREVER.

[stlnative]

Well I have always considered the fact that Ricci may have not had the Jeep during the time in question. Someone may have took it from Moul's without Ricci's knowledge and he did not know it was away from the shop and only learned of it after it showed back up and maybe then he learned that the Jeep was involved in Liz's kidnapping. Or Ricci actually lent it out to someone and told the person if they could get out of the shop they could borrow it...again thinking that Ricci had no idea what the person was planning to do with the Jeep and only learned about it after it was returned to Ricci.

It is possible that the Jeep has nothing to do with the kidnapping at all. Ricci may have been trying to bargain with LE about the Jeep and where it was to get some charges he was already facing dropped or a to get a lighter sentence. It possible that LE told him no deal. Maybe being told they would drop charges for crimes (non Liz related) he may have been doing during the Jeep time period in question was not good enough for Ricci as he may have not been doing anything with the Jeep.

As always I am not sold 100% on the fact that Ricci was involved in Liz's kidnapping. I am not afraid to look outside the box, even if that means taking a closer look at the family now. (No I do not think the family had anything to do with this.)

I have taken a look at public records of the Smart Family... these records are out there for anyone to retrieve or pay for to obtain. I will not fully share what I have learned as these records do not belong to me or I am not the official record holder of these records.

I will tell you this much, E & L Smart are not sitting on a bunch of money. So I do not think this kidnapping was done for a ransom or at least done as a ransom kidnapping by someone that knows Ed Smart well. The house & land they live in and on now (the 4517 sq foot home, plus land) was on the market for 1.9 million but was only valued between $600,000 & $675,000 at the end of 2001. They do own a cabin in their name that values out at about $160,000 (1222 sq foot cabin).

I am starting to question why in the world he would put the house on the market for $1,900,000.00 ??????? (you do the math on the increase between the value and asking price)

Later Folks...I am tired and will be going to bed for few hours... I was up working all night on a client's project.

[Devil_Anse]

To complete the scenario that Ricci's jeep was "repossessed" from Neth's on May 30 b/c Ricci owed money to a heroin trafficker, let's consider Moul's reaction. There was no hue and cry by Moul or the Riccis when the jeep was taken from Neth's on May 30. We don't know who took it. Notice Moul had much less to say about whoever took the jeep out on May 30, whereas he went into all sorts of detail about who brought the jeep back on June 8 (Ricci.)

Moul is described in one article as "street-smart," and that's probably accurate, what auto repair shop owner isn't at least somewhat street-smart? Maybe Moul knew or suspected that Ricci's dealer had "repossessed" the jeep right out of Moul's lot, on May 30. He sure isn't going to raise any fuss, and risk angering, or blowing the anonymity of, a narcotics trafficker. Moul would know that if one ticks off a narcotics trafficker by revealing the trafficker's name or any of the trafficker's doings, one can easily be found dead soon after.

Now for the discrepancy in mileage on the jeep when it returned to the shop. If you were a drug dealer who had taken some customer's jeep b/c that rat didn't pay you what he owed you, would you be all conscientious about not letting anyone use the jeep while you had it? No. Being a drug dealer/criminal, you might very well decide to use or loan out the jeep any way you pleased.

Or maybe Ricci quickly scrambled and got up the money he owed the drug dealer, and the dealer returned the jeep to him. Maybe then Ricci took a drive somewhere (for legal or illegal purposes.) Maybe Ricci put those miles on the jeep after he got it back from its "repossession."

If any of this is accurate, did Ricci pay off his drug debt b/f or after June 5? Because if he hadn't paid it by June 5, and gotten his jeep back, then he didn't have a jeep with which to transport Elizabeth--if he's the one who took her.

[Devil_Anse]

Have a good sleep.

I think the asking price for the Smart home was $1.19 million. That would be $1,190,000.