Elizabeth Smart thread, September 5, 2002-?

[lakey]

Thank YOU! How could I forget that name.

Obviously, I need to read more of what has been posted in the last couple of days. You are making connections that I don't understand.

[sandude]

Thanks for responding. I was thinking of a situation where a person loses their right to claim the 5th because of some overriding issue. It seems to me there have been situations before congress where a person is compelled to testify. Let's take the situation and give it a hypothetical question.

Grand Jury Question "Do you know if you're husband had possession of the Jeep on the 8th of June?"

In her first appearance she could have claimed her spousal rights.

If those rights are gone now and she is recalled and given the same question she may not want to answer it because of it may incriminate her. Can she still plead the 5th or will they say she should have used that right in the first appearance and can not use it now?

I would imagine that she still could plead the 5th because of it's precedence in US law but there are some instances where people are not allowed to use it. Could this be one of them?

[varina davis]

Have you read all the posts about the ex-bishop, Spencer Dixon? Check the new thread.

[sandude]

I'm sorry but Magna is not close to anything. Kearns is much closer to Federal Heights and so is West Valley City. Not that either one is very close but relative to Magna they are.

[cookiedough]

Not if she lied on LKL, and intends either to lie to Grand Jury or to assert her constitutional right not to incriminate herself. She could be telling the truth to the GJ and to the press, or she could be lying to both, or she could be lying to the press and not to the GJ, or she could be lying to the press and remaining silent (at least on pertinent facts) before the Grand Jury.

None of us really knows for a fact whether Angela is telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or not.

Frankly, with Ricci dead and the rewards out there, I think if anything is going to shake loose, it will happen very soon.

I'm not holding my breath. I think LE's best hope is that they find Liz' body and that they can get forensic evidence from it. It would be a miracle if she were still alive at this point. Unfortunately, without an informant, I think it will also be a miracle if her body is found anytime soon.

As I see it, there is circumstantial evidence to incriminate Ricci -- but none of it rises anywhere near the level of the evidence pointing to only one conclusion: that he abducted Liz.

There is also circumstantial evidence tending to exonerate Ricci, and that is everything that points to Ricci having an accomplice.

While soapboxing in this post, something else comes to mind. If my husband had done something like this crime, and I knew about it, I would speak out because I would be afraid for my children to be around him. Angela has a child too, and it seems to me that she would think a person who would abduct Liz would be a dangerous person for her child to live with.

[Utah Girl]

No, West Valley City is closer to Federal Heights than Magna is. Not by much, but it is closer.

[lakey]

Only have scanned - will print them to read tonight. Thanks

'nite.

[cookiedough]

The prosecutor would be likely to give her some sort of immunity from prosecution if she answered the questions. Either complete immunity, or qualified immunity from being prosecuted using evidence gathered as a result of her Grand Jury testimony.

[sandude]

Angela has a child too, and it seems to me that she would think a person who would abduct Liz would be a dangerous person for her child to live with.

That is unless she was in on the planning from the start.

[cookiedough]

Well, evil does masquerade as light, so it is possible. Have you read M. Scott Peck's book about it, _People of the Lie_, I think it's called?

It is beyond me to fathom how a mother can put her child in harm's way, but we all know that there are those who do it.

[sandude]

The prosecutor would be likely to give her some sort of immunity from prosecution if she answered the questions.

If they have nothing or very little on Angela then it would make no sense for her to take immunity. On the other hand if they have loads on her but want to get the other parties involved then the immunity angle would come into play. They also may not give her immunity because they have enough to burn her and don’t need her to get the others.

[cookiedough]

If so, they'd tell her attorney about it, and use it to make a deal to catch the bigger fish. The day she shows up with a criminal defense lawyer is the day we should all start holding our breaths because that means something is up.

Smith doesn't count -- he doesn't strike me, from things he's said, to be the type to negotiate a plea bargain with the government. He said criminal law is not his bailiwick.

[Devil_Anse]

You really seem to know the area, it's great to read the descriptions from you and from those who have also been to the area.

VERY interesting, if you're sure the PsiTech sketches don't fit with the Indian burial site area, but fit with the mine area you talked about. I still don't entirely know what to make of PsiTech. After all, sometimes information that is clothed in the pretense of being "psychic" is really coming from an earthly source!
You seem to have a completely open mind when it comes to considering anyone as suspect. I think that, plus your familiarity with the area, puts you in a good position to figure this thing out.

About the possibility of Elizabeth being molested and/or pregnant, I think that's run through the minds of many watchers of this case. If she was pregnant by some boy, I just think the family would have sent her someplace to have the baby and give it up for adoption. However, I must admit that with the new openness about adoption records, maybe that's not such an attractive option any more for a "nice girl" who "gets in trouble." Plus, if the Smarts created this huge hue and cry, and then it turned out they'd hidden her b/c she was pregnant, they'd be in very big trouble, and I'm sure they have enough brains to know that. Pregnant by a family member? It's anybody's guess how desperate that might make the family member, but I certainly think that could lead to murder.

Unless there's something drastic like that that was going on, though, I just don't see anything at this point that indicates the family would move all the way from apparent deep affection for Elizabeth, to the urge to murder her.

If Ed and Lois were contemplating divorce--and as far as I know, there's never been anything, really, to say that they were--then maybe someone on Ed's side of the family was deeply resentful of Lois and wanted to do this to get back at her or hurt her. Or maybe Ed is mentally disturbed--though we have no info he is, he's just kind of bad at communicating sometimes--and maybe he didn't want Lois to divorce him, and did this to stop the divorce. (That one took two wholly unsupported assumptions: mental illness in Ed, and divorce.) Or maybe Ed wanted to stop the divorce until after Lois got her inheritance from Myron Francom, and did this to stop it. (That one takes 3 assumptions: that there was a divorce coming, that there was a large inheritance coming, and that Ed would come up with this as a plan to stop the divorce.)

[cookiedough]

The immunity offer would be to get her talk, to get whatever she does have to say out of her. She wouldn't lose by so doing, except that her public persona would be smeared if she had to testify in court later.

[sandude]

It is beyond me to fathom how a mother can put her child in harm's way, but we all know that there are those who do it.

I think that Richard was not a threat to Angela or her son. We have seen no record of domestic violence. He was a junkie though and there is risk there. Of course it doesn't sound like Angela was the greatest mother with statements like "he was his bestest dad" and Thurbers comments about her being somatose and face down in a plate of food.

Angela had scored big on some lawsuit dealing with a car accident. Perhaps they had just a little taste of what having real money was like and started looking for ways to make a big score. I also think it is possible that Angela's brother was involved. I do think that this was a kidnap gone bad and not a sex crime but it is hard to tell for sure. I have some new thoughts on the case but I'm not ready to state them just yet. Still percolating so to speak.

[sandude]

The immunity offer would be to get her talk, to get whatever she does have to say out of her.

If they already know she is involved and don't need her testimony to get the others then they will offer no immunity.

[varina davis]

Of course it doesn't sound like Angela was the greatest mother with statements like "he was his bestest dad"

Why would that statement make her a bad mother?!

[sandude]

Why would that statement make her a bad mother?!

Perhaps unlucky might be a better word, I don't know. She appears to have had at least two and probably more male figures in the boy's life. Maybe her judgment about men was not all that great. Rick was a junkie after all.

[cookiedough]

With everyone else fair game -- from the milkman to the air condition repairman -- it has seemed odd to me that nothing has been said about Angela's brother beyond the fact that he introduced her to Ricci. I figured there would be a tidbit or two more about him in the press, since the press has nothing else to do regarding this case. Perhaps the press did try to interview the brother to get insight on Ricci's personality, but the brother refused to be interviewed.

Domestic violence doesn't enter into it. I'm saying if my husband kidnapped another person's child, I would be concerned for the safety of my child. Anyone who would do that is evil and I would not trust them around my child for one second.

If this is a ranson-motivated abduction, then they are either holding Liz or have killed her. If they are holding her, in the face of her family's anguish, then they are evil people. If they killed her, they are evil people.

If I knew about either scenario, I would not allow my husband to be around my children and I would be afraid of him -- if he can do that, no matter what the reason, what else can he do?

This does not speak to two possibilities: (1) that Angela was involved from the beginning, or (2) that Angela rationalized to herself that Ricci helped, but did not actually commit the act of either the abduction or the killing -- and thus is not truly culpable or capable of either of those things.