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Elizabeth Smart thread, August 31-September 7, 2002

Posted on 08/31/2002 10:26:34 AM PDT by IamHD

My prayers go out to the Ricci family during this time. RR was sent up the river and used as a scape-goat. No evidence, whatsoever, linking him to the disappearance of Elizabeth.

May he rest in peace.


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To: brigette
Here's from the article about the next door neighbor that heard something:

A neighbor of the Smarts, Frank Gustin, said he was awakened by a loud noise at 3 a.m., either a shout or a dog's bark, but could not see anything from his front window.

Though Gustin is not part of the close-knit Mormon community, he has good relations with the Smarts and said Elizabeth's disappearance is hitting the neighborhood very hard. "They're a wonderful family, gentle, caring people. It's like losing your own daughter. It leaves a big void," he said. "You feel so damn helpless."

261 posted on 09/02/2002 12:09:25 AM PDT by Sherlock
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To: brigette
On that last post I would guess that might have been when Elizabeth fell on the driveway. And the guy looked out and didn't see anything.

This one (dated 6Jun02, morning after the kidnapping) is informative because it shows the repair men, probably Ricci #1, were being investigated right away. Such a shame they didn't bother doing a quick check on Ricci's record, they would have been all over him like stink on a skunk if they had. The had over half the police force working on this case for Pete's sake.

The blond-haired, blue-eyed teenager, known as an avid horseback rider and talented harpist, was snatched from her bed about 1:15 a.m. Wednesday by a soft-spoken masked gunman who entered through the window and threatened to kill her if she made noise, police said.

Elizabeth's 9-year-old sister, who shares her room, was also threatened by the gunman, and waited a few hours before notifying her parents. She gave police a description of a white man, age 28 to 40, with dark hair, who wore a light-colored shirt and pants.

But police and the Smarts' relatives said they had no idea who might have taken Elizabeth. Among the people being investigated were workers who made repairs to the Smarts' sprawling, elegant house, which in recent weeks been put up for sale, and buyers who visited it.

262 posted on 09/02/2002 12:16:14 AM PDT by Sherlock
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To: varina davis
If it was him they have him on video.

After reading the articles today I think either 1) the police were sandbagging on what they know (hopefully because they do believe someone may be still holding her alive), 2) the police are incompetent, or 3) the police are covering up. We'll see what happens.
263 posted on 09/02/2002 12:21:21 AM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Sherlock
Again... if it was muddy... Why remove the seat covers but leave the newspapers on the floor with mud on them that could be traced possibly if he was out burying a body? Why leave the Jeep all muddy on the outside why not wash it before turning it over to Moul if he was out burying Liz? It sounds to me that he removed the covers because Moul is a messy mechanic and he did not want his seat covers ruined by Moul.

If Liz was in that Jeep and he removed the seat covers after or before he laid down the newspaper... the fibers are there on top of the newspaper on under the newspaper on the carpet. It would be even worse if the fibers were found on top of the newspaper as that would show there is a pretty good chance that she was in the Jeep after the newspapers were laid down which would be dated.

Now if I was Ricci and harden criminal, and I was confessing to ripping off the Smart Family & their neighbors and I knew I did not kill Liz or have anything to do with the crime and I had detectives wanting straight answers and someone to blame for this crime, they wouldn't get chit out me either. Ricci been through the ropes before, Ricci was not going to be scapegoat for the SLC and them wanting to solve this crime. I'd say he probably did not trust the cops at all and was worried if he turned the stuff over that they may try to pin it on him due to the huge profile and attention the case was getting.

As you can see I am on the otherside of the fence tonight, I am looking at the case through Ricci's side. No matter what side I am on it still adds up to me thinking that Ricci is the wrong guy. I need some hard evidence, I don't care what is past is, I don't care that he worked in the home, anyone could have done this and is is very possible that Ricci lent his Jeep to someone without knowledge that the crime was going to happened or maybe he did lose a set of keys and the guy who was with him had the keys and did the dirty. Maybe flunked his Poly because of the knowledge he gained after the fact. Ricci was good at being two faced... nice to your face, but would rob you behind your back! Maybe he screwed someone over and with Ricci running his big mouth about the ease of the Smart home that someone decided to set him up. Maybe the person wanted to rob the home only and plant the stuff on Ricci, maybe in his Jeep and then tip the police off. But the the perp was seen by Liz and he had no choice but to take her along, because she could ID Ricci and the man the house was not Ricci and he was the one that was going to be set-up to take the fall for the robbery. Maybe the perp was spotted by Liz before he had chance to lift something out of the house. Maybe not maybe Ricci found the robbed goods in his Jeep and stashed them before they were found, maybe Ricci got a call from the perp that said hey, Bud... we set you up, let's see you get out of this one. Sure Ricci could have turned over who set him up... but it could be that he did not know how far this person would go before police were able to pick him up. Maybe he feared for Angela and her son's life.

When I was a kid I grew up in rough part of town, I was street smart. I lived in an apartment complex, there was a lot of drug users that lived there. One day a gal I sorta knew came down to the apartment pool crying. She kept saying they won't let me in to my apartment. I followed her back to the apartment where she lived. We went to her apartment and the door was wide open. Whoever would not let her in was gone...but her druggie boyfriend was in the back bedroom, dead as a door knob. They counted over 60 fresh needle holes in his body. He was killed over owing someone drug money. So they shot him up with heroin and killed him with the thing he loved so much. The gal never would tell police who was in the apartment because she knew they would come after her next. She didn't take part in the crime as she was at work and came home to 2 men that would not let her in the apartment, thats when I saw her crying as she entered the swimming pool area. I had no idea that of what I was about to see otherwisw I would have never went back to her apartment with her. They never did catch the guys. I also knew many people who were in the drug running business only because I lived where I did and had lived there since I was an infant, and druggies moved in later and my mother did not know how to drive and needed to stay close to work so she could walk to work. Eventually they cleaned the place out of all the druggies after they hired armed security guards and started kicking people out. My whole point of telling you this is that I know how nasty the druggies can get and how they can get with each other. How they can be buds one minute and be trying to kill each other the next. It is a whole other world... most of the people that were around that apartment complex are dead or in prison. How I made it out is beyond me... What I saw at such a young age made me grow up fast and I never got sucked into the life style, even though I was friends with these people through my teen years. I was just a kid that was there before them and they befriended me and knew I would keep my mouth shut because I grew up in a one parent home and had a bad childhood so the any friends I made back then were a comfort to me at that time, but I was not stupid enough to slip into their world and make life like they did.
264 posted on 09/02/2002 12:34:32 AM PDT by stlnative
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To: sandude
Are you trying to say that there was no seat cover as his relative claims? Moul has stated that there was a seat cover in the back and that he had put a grease mark on it during a previous visit.

No...I not claiming that... he probably had front seat covers and that is probably where Moul got the grease on the seat before from getting in and out of the front seat. What I am saying is front seat covers are easy to get for the Jeep, but rear seat covers are not. Since now most are saying he was an Indian Blanket on the rear seat... then I believe that. Actually that is what I ended up using to cover up rear seat up in my Jeep, but mine was Mexican blanket like they sell as throws at Wally World, but I bought mine down in Mexico. What I find strange is that if she was in the Jeep and he was trying to hide something by removing the blanket he used as rear seat cover, why leave the newspapers behind, why leave all the mud on the Jeep? Also if he used a blanket as cover the blanket has to come all the way off to fold the rear seat down. If I get time tomorrow I will take a snap shot of the rear seat of my Jeep so that some of you can understand how it works. The removal of the blanket really means nothing to me because he left the newspapers behind. It is possible that he removed the blanket and folded down the rear seat and balled up the blanket and set it in back or maybe he used it to protect the rear part of the Jeep carpet from landscaping plants or pots that he was planting with the post hole digger.

Maybe Ricci had girlfriend on the side, maybe he was too broke to get a hotel or maybe they could not go to her house because she was married, maybe his girlfriend called to get the Jeep out so that him and her could go take a ride on rough terrain and to take a romp in the back part of the Jeep. Trust me you don't want to be laying on that rough carpet in the back. Maybe the Jeep got stuck in the mud and they had to leave it. All this time he not going to tell Angela hey baby I was screwing such and such in the back of my Jeep and if he is innocent he knows the cops are not going to find anything on him or in the Jeep to connect him to the crime because he was not involved and that same time he not going to tell police that he screwing around on his new wife because they will tell her and he needs her more than ever now. Yeah Yeah... I know Ricci was no stud-muffin, but hey Angela is not down right ugly and Ricci may have been a real charmer to someone that also was a drugie like he was.
265 posted on 09/02/2002 12:56:10 AM PDT by stlnative
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To: Sherlock; sandude
Something tells me that Liz is stuffed in a neighbor's chest freezer in the ol' neighborhood. I hate to say it but that is what I believe. Due to Ricci's past and his connection to the family made him the perfect suspect for police and it even made it worse when he would not acknowledge were the Jeep was. My guess is that Ricci had a girlfriend, maybe someone that was not drugging herself everynight. Ricci was player, Angela wasn't rich... but she was steady and understanding. The possible gal on the side may have been able to take care of his drug fix and maybe she would hand him money at times. Ol Ricci got off of his hypertension meds, because he had a wife to satisfy now and maybe even a girlfriend or maybe he could not afford it since the state pen was not paying for it anymore.

I know I am being crude tonight, it is just another possible scenario to this puzzling case. You have to look at both side of the fence. I want to know what the police had on Ricci, what would he not tell them and what did he tell them ???
266 posted on 09/02/2002 1:13:15 AM PDT by stlnative
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To: Sherlock
Please go to your sewer threads and take your garbage posts with you.

Looks like you're still trying to cover up things that are being said and that you don't have any proof whether these things aren't true either. Still flying your broomstick and getting ready for full moon early? Take a hike, you'll feel better.

267 posted on 09/02/2002 2:36:51 AM PDT by Bella
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To: jengaio
Yeah, Varina's got a thing about me.

I highly DOUBT Varina's got a "thing" about you!

268 posted on 09/02/2002 2:43:49 AM PDT by Bella
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To: brigette
I recall hearing that Ricci's wife said the jeep did not have seat covers. Also I recall reading and hearing on the news that the seat covers were really blankets that covered the seats. I can't give any sources for reports of seat covers vs. blankets.

There is one thing I wish we had and that is a chart with Ricci's known activities for the dates and times during the days the jeep was out of the repair shop. We have some times available: i.e., when Ricci was seen digging by trailer, taking neighbor and his son to a movie, and his work days. I wish we had a list of all the known days Ricci actually reported to a job and the hours from when to when.

We might find that Ricci really didn't have time to travel any distance from SLC, and it seems some here have already figured that out. Someone else, and not Ricci, had the jeep during those days it was out of the shop.

The accomplice had to have kept the jeep hidden until he left SLC with Elizabeth and he was gone the whole time until it was returned by Ricci to the shop. There is some place in or around SLC where that jeep was parked because Ricci did not have it to drive or someone would have seen it and told, so where was it?

Did the repair shop clean the jeep thoroughly before the police picked it up? It was returned dirty and covered with mud? There had to be some DNA left from whomever had that jeep, and I think the police have that DNA evidence. They probably haven't been able to match it up with anyone yet or we would have heard about it.
269 posted on 09/02/2002 5:08:57 AM PDT by Yellowcat
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Comment #270 Removed by Moderator

To: freedox
You summed up the problem with Neth Moul'a statement very well. What mechanic is going to release a car with money still owed without making some sort of arrangements?

It never has ringed true to me.
271 posted on 09/02/2002 6:06:44 AM PDT by FR_addict
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To: FR_addict
Ed is on Foxnews now.
272 posted on 09/02/2002 6:23:20 AM PDT by landerwy
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To: landerwy
He said he couldn't go into what MK did or did not recognize about Ricci.
273 posted on 09/02/2002 6:28:03 AM PDT by landerwy
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To: brigette
You definitely didn't lead a sheltered life!
274 posted on 09/02/2002 6:36:09 AM PDT by FR_addict
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To: landerwy
Didn't hear him. Sounds like more of the same. Anything new?
275 posted on 09/02/2002 6:41:00 AM PDT by FR_addict
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To: varina davis
YOU "figure! Who are you to figure such a thing with no proof or evidence whatsoever. Why not just stick to what few facts there are available.

That statement may come back to haunt you varina.

276 posted on 09/02/2002 7:03:04 AM PDT by sandude
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Comment #277 Removed by Moderator

To: IamHD
Would warfarin cause breathing difficulties?

Yep.

Potential Adverse Reactions To Warfarin Sodium May Include Fatal or nonfatal hemorrhage from any tissue or organ: This is a consequence of the anticoagulant effect. The signs, symptoms, and severity will vary according to the location and degree or extent of the bleeding. Hemorrhagic complications may present as paralysis; paresthesia; headache, chest, abdomen, joint, muscule, or other pain; dizziness, shortness of breath, difficult breathing or swallowing; unexplained swelling; weakness; hypotension; or unexplained shock.
278 posted on 09/02/2002 7:28:27 AM PDT by Tazlo
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To: TheDon
"You sound like you think I have some special knowledge that Dick murdered Elizabeth."

I do? That certainly was not my intention.

"I can't imagine what it would be like for Elizabeth to face Dick, if he's her murderer, and forgive him. I'm glad to see you feel she has. It says alot of good things about you."

Thank you, so long as you were not being sarcastic. I hope not, anyway. :)

279 posted on 09/02/2002 7:31:49 AM PDT by IamHD
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To: Sherlock
"I remember him saying Ricci talked about how cute she was and how she used to follow him around the house and help him out and Thurber used the term mushy to describe it, said it was way out."

I think this reflects more negatively on Thurber than it does on Ricci. This was a 48 y/o father, talking about a then 12-13 y/o girl who used to help him out when he worked for her family. From all accounts, Elizabeth was indeed very cute and sweet and endearing.....I see nothing odd about Ricci describing her as such. The fact that Thurber interpreted Ricci's comments as being "mushy" (i.e., sexual) makes me wonder about Thurber's level of maturity.

280 posted on 09/02/2002 7:32:44 AM PDT by freedox
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