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To: FormerLurker
BTW, your argument about unemployed American workers being a negative effect on the economy is also BS because they don't disappear - they are simply displaced by new foreign workers, which will have a neutral net effect on the economy. Also, the fact that companies have to pay developers less means higher corporate profits, which means a better economy.
28 posted on 06/25/2002 11:11:56 PM PDT by billybudd
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To: billybudd
The destruction of the managerial middle class means a better economy ? Programming isn't like being an athlete or a model. Age doesn't have one thing to do with doing it and doing it well.
30 posted on 06/26/2002 3:09:51 AM PDT by Tokhtamish
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To: billybudd
Also, the fact that companies have to pay developers less means higher corporate profits, which means a better economy.

Well that's been happening and the economy isn't exactly better. High corporate profits seem to benefit a very few people, low wages are hurting many areas of the country where people can no longer provide for their families on one salary or without some kind of government program. The stock market is not doing too well ---how many people can sell their stocks before it completely crashes?

33 posted on 06/26/2002 6:14:54 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: billybudd
BTW, your argument about unemployed American workers being a negative effect on the economy is also BS because they don't disappear - they are simply displaced by new foreign workers, which will have a neutral net effect on the economy.

Now THAT is pure BS. These "new foreign workers" usually end up sending most of their money back home. At the end of their term here, they go back to their homeland and live a confortable life with all the US money they put away.

Not only that, but many such workers don't pay into the US Social Security system. They are in fact taxed, but their taxes are sent to pay Social Security to the country from which they came.

Information on this is available below..

U.S. INTERNATIONAL SOCIAL SECURITY AGREEMENTS

http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/H1BFAQs.htm#DoWorkersPayFICA

Also, the fact that companies have to pay developers less means higher corporate profits, which means a better economy.

How do you figure that? Have you been in touch with reality this past year or so? Do you think the shareholders of high-tech companies are happy with the economy? What about the millions of engineers out of work right now, how about them?

39 posted on 06/26/2002 9:39:31 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: billybudd
Since you appear to be ignorant to the real state of the software industry and how it is affected by the H1B problem, why don't you take a look at this article I found on USENET a few months ago. It's not as long as Dr. Matloff's report, so you should find the time to read it in it's entirety...

______________________________ _________________

Where Did All The Jobs Go? - The H-1B Situation

I am a software engineer currently looking for work. My job skills are current. In fact, I filed a patent at my last employer. I have submitted hundreds of resumes for various positions. I have only had a few job interviews. However, those interviews were quite informative. For example, on a recent interview, I immediately noticed that the software managers and engineers were from other countries. This appears to be the situation at all the companies I have recently interviewed with.

I was aware that Congress had recently doubled the number of H-1B visas for skilled foreign workers. In fact, 1,000,000 H-1B workers will be employed in the U.S. by the end of 2002. That's right - one million people. That's a lot of jobs especially since unemployment is at record highs.

What is the H-1B program? If you don't know about it, you better learn about it quickly because it may be the reason you don't have a job. "The H-1B non-immigrant program is a voluntary program that allows employers to temporarily import and employ non-immigrants admitted under H-1B visas to fill specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers."
http://www.dol.gov/dol/eta/pub lic/regs/fedreg/final/2000
122001.htm

Each company hiring an H-1B employee is required to file a Labor Condition Application (LCA). An LCA is an application filed by a company that wants to hire a foreign national to fill a position within the United States.

With this in mind, I wanted to determine how many engineering positions were filled by H-1B engineers at a given company. Since this should be public information, I went to my trusty search engine looking for a LCA database. For some reason, it does not appear that the INS (http://www.ins.gov) or other government web sites provide a LCA database. However, I finally found a web site which has a LCA database at http://www.zazona.com

The database link is at http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data

Their advanced database search is very helpful. For example in the advanced search, select the state as California, enter a city as Santa Clara, enter the employer name as Hewlett Packard and enter number of records as 50 then press the submit query button. You can see the positions and salaries of the H-1B employees. Looking at the data, we are not talking about a few dozen positions. We are talking about literally hundreds of positions. This is only for the HP offices in Santa Clara. Go back and do the above search but leave the enter a city blank. You will see that Hewlett Packard employs hundreds and hundreds of H-1B workers. Moreover, we are not only losing engineering jobs but H-1B visas are being granted for almost any conceivable position. Just look at the LCA database to see what types of jobs are being denied to U.S. citizens.

This appears to be the only site with a LCA database so I wondered who created the site. There is an interesting article about its creator at www.sacbee.com/content/opinion /story/1094647p-1159082c.html

With the current economic conditions, many large firms have instigated massive layoffs. Many engineers have been unable to find work for months. As mentioned above, the H-1B program allows employers to temporarily import and employ non U.S. citizens to fill specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers. Go back and look at the list of jobs filled at Hewlett Packard by H-1B employees. I personally know of many individuals who are qualified for those positions but are unable to find work. Something is seriously wrong.

I've been told by many permanent and contract hiring agencies that companies now prefer to hire H-1B workers and work them long hours at lower wages - knowing they won't say anything fearing they would lose their H-1B status. At my last firm, the engineering manager had his engineers working many weekends. When one of the H-1B engineers complained, he said that there were plenty of engineers in Taiwan that wanted his place. I have heard other engineers say that managers like to threaten H-1B engineers with losing their H-1B status unless they do exactly what they are told. I've also heard and personally noticed that many companies are hiring H-1B managers with the expressed purpose of having them fill engineering positions with H-1B engineers from their respective country. Many companies are finding this an inexpensive way to lower costs as discussed in a recent USA Today article titled "Tech Firms' Hiring Practices Ignore Idle Americans"
http://www.usatoday.com/usaton line/20011205/3673849s
.htm

Dr. Norman Matloff, professor of computer science at the University of California at Davis, also supports these findings.
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/ itaa.html

Someone wrote me to ask "Why do US citizens deserve the jobs more than H-1B workers?" Well, think about it. If tomorrow, 1,000,000 technical jobs in say New Delhi were suddenly replaced by American workers, the Indian government would be very upset. The problem is the sheer number of people since one million H-1B workers will be employed in the U.S. by the end of 2002. There needs to be a more balanced system in which everyone comes out ahead. Countries need to provide the infrastructure for their own engineers to develop businesses and find employment at home. Globalization should mean that software projects are jointly developed between countries rather than having everyone move here. The myth is that the U.S. has unlimited space but just look at the traffic congestion in most U.S. cities. What was initially a reasonable idea has grown into a monster of unreasonable size.

Another person wrote me to say "If economics is the corporate motivation, isn't it more effective to take the entire division offshore? You don't need any H1-B visas for that." You have to remember there is a good reason that everyone is coming here rather than starting companies in other countries. The infrastructure of roads, legal systems, communications and schools does not exist in most countries. This infrastructure exists because U.S. taxpayers have been paying for it over many years. If companies had to build a similar infrastructure offshore, the cost would be prohibitive for them. The H1-Bs use our schools, roads, etc. but have not had to pay taxes over many years for their construction. Hence, citizens paid for the schools and roads which companies use for H1-Bs to replace citizens. So companies and H1-Bs get a free lunch. I am not saying we should not have any H-1Bs, the problem is that we are talking about hundreds of thousands of H-1Bs. This is having a major impact on the technical labor market.

The U.S. is one of the few countries which now offers unlimited access to its job market at the expense of its own citizens. While going to college, if I had any idea that most of the engineering positions would be taken by
H-1B labor, I would never have become an engineer. I advise young people not to become involved in engineering since companies find it easier to hire less expensive H-1B labor. The H-1B managers prefer to hire more H-1B labor - it's only human nature - so you have a vicious cycle. The end result is that U.S. citizens need not apply. This is the situation for the majority of companies in my area.

The other issue is that U.S. engineering firms are no longer hiring African and Hispanic Americans. I've noticed that many firms with H-1B managers have no African and Hispanic Americans on their staff. We need to hire minority Americans at home before we run off and hire everyone from elsewhere.

I believe with the current economic conditions the H-1B issue will become a very important topic in the coming months. Frankly, the media and press have not discussed the seriousness of this subject. Why? I believe they did not have the tools and databases required to see the size of the problem. Fortunately, the LCA data is now available at (http://www.zazona.com). You can now determine how many and what type of jobs are being denied to unemployed U.S. citizens at a given company and location.

The H-1B law says it is to "temporarily import and employ ... specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers". Thus, the law was intended for "temporary" rather than permanent labor. The law was clearly not intended to deny U.S. citizens jobs but this is precisely what it is doing during this difficult economic time. What needs to be done to correct this grievous situation?

Congress needs to enforce the law by requiring companies to provide immediate employment to qualified unemployed U.S. citizens if an H-1B employee is filling a position a citizen is qualified for. When a company has layoffs, Congress should force companies to obey the law by discharging H-1B employees before U.S. citizens. It's the law. Whether Congress enforces the law is another matter.

It is ironic that the same corporations displaying football
field size American flags are the worse offenders. They are making the technology sector as dependent upon foreign labor as we are dependent upon foreign oil. Because of their lust for profits, our government, banking, financial and technology systems are now heavily in the hands of non citizens. Companies are using the system to their own advantage while pitting U.S. employees against H-1B employees and cruelly hurting both.

If the current H-1B situation is not immediately changed,
U.S. citizens will abandon the engineering field. Think about it. You just lost your job and go to the LCA database to learn that 25 H-1B employees are still working in your position. You will not be a happy camper. What can you do to help?

Email this article to all your friends.

Encourage them to look at the LCA database.
http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data/
The job they are losing may be on the list.

Sign the petition. You will find a petition to send to your
congressional representatives at
http://www.zazona.com/H1BPetit ion/P/petition.html

Your most powerful action is to write your U.S. Congressperson and Senators. Remember, H-1B employees cannot vote but as a U.S. citizen, your vote counts. Even though powerful companies have heavily contributed to your congressional leaders to keep the H-1B laws in place, companies cannot vote - only you can. Don't let your job be eliminated next.

You can find your congressional representative at these
links.
Your Congressperson
http://www.house.gov/writerep/
Your Senators
http://www.senate.gov/contacti ng/index_by_state.cfm

Don't forget to both email and make a phone call to your
local Congressperson.

Write the business and political editors of your local
newspaper.

The following academic articles should be of interest:

Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at
the University of California at Davis
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/ itaa.html

August 5, 1999 Testimony of Gene A. Nelson, Ph.D.
http://www.house.gov/judiciary /nels0805.htm

Thank you for your support.

Unemployed Engineer

41 posted on 06/26/2002 10:07:05 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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