Posted on 03/22/2002 4:04:11 PM PST by Wordsmith
If you mean on a local level, I think there are definitely some attempts at reaching out to each other.
We had a guest from Moscow last weekend and took him to liturgy with the OCA, then blini with the ROCOR. The Matushka at the ROCOR church told me she is trying to heal the division between the two.
There have been some events at the Russian Community Center in which both churches have participated.
Modernity as a cultural phenomenon (as distinct from progress in the sciences) is, from an Orthodox point of view, a rather unfortunate outcome of the schism of the Patriarchate of Rome from the Church and the subsequent history of Western Europe. We really have no interest in adapting to it, though we are quite happy to adapt it to the Faith.
I will leave you with a joke on the subject:
Q: How many Orthodox priests does it take to change a light bulb?
A: (Best delivered in a deep, rolling, Russian-accented voice) Change? Who said anything about change?
Reader Athanasius
If the Uniates share our position on all of these but the Roman papacy is willing to have them in their communion, it seems to me an open and shut case against union with Rome even if the obnoxious papal claims were all dropped--if one takes the Faith once delivered to the saints so lightly that one sees no difference between the Latin position and the Orthodox on these matters, one can hardly be said to share the faith of the Orthodox. This is always the Orthodox criterion for union with other confessions: do they profess the Orthodox Faith?
There are definitely some Orthodox that would do so, however out hierarchy is very much against it. One benefit, I believe, of selecting our Bishops from the monastic orders.
If not, has there been a call for modernization from any of the different Orthodox Churches?
There was some earlier in the 20th Century from the Greek Church which culminated in them, and a few others, adopting the Revised Julian or New Calendar (largely indistinguishable from the Gregorian). This created a division in Orthodoxy that has yet to heal (although all of the Patriarchates remain in communion despite that).
How have you withstood change?
Part of that answer lies in the fact that the Orthodox Church has only limited exposure to the rapidly changing culture in the West. There just has been less demand for change. A big part of it is observing what has happened within the Roman Catholic Church since Vatican II. Simply put, we don't want to go through that.
Last question: What is OCA?
The OCA (or Orthodox Church in America) was part of the Russian Orthodox Church, the first one in America, that was granted autocephaly by their mother church around 1970. This means that no foreign Bishop has any authority over any of the Bishops of the OCA. However, only a few of the foreign bishops have officially recognized the status of the OCA since that would mean that any of their Churches within the Americas would be under the authority of the OCA Bishops.
To make a long story short, this is a remnant of the chaos that Communist oppression of the Orthodox Church caused. In the life of the church, the 30 years since this occurred is as nothing. Eventually, the OCA will be recognized by other Partriarches which will result in all of them granting recognition.
OCA churches are primarily English speaking churches but there are some parishes with a Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Serbian, or Albanian history.
That really brings all discussion to a very fine point, does it not?
It really is only a matter of time, I believe. Similar to the situation with the division in the Serbian Church that was healed when Pavle was named Patriarch, the final healing will probably occur with Alexy II's successor.
Thanks for the ping, Wordy. I'd like very much to be part of a discussion like this. I'll try to catch up on the posts so far .. hope this one doesn't move as fast as that other thread or I won't be able to keep up.
I'd rather a slower moving thread with thought-out answers and a few dedicated participants as well. We'll see what happens. Look forward to hearing from you. God Bless!
Hello, TM. Would love to hear a couple of thumbnails on the topic since you've devoted some intensive time to it, if you get the chance. God Bless!
ACK! A papal paradox puzzle! :)
If a Pope infallibly declares that he's not infallible, where would that leave us?
I don't think we've been tempted to, since we've always been open to local languages and the Latin issue seems to an outsider like me to have been the biggest impetus for the RC modernization. We have some internal tensions over modernization issues, but they're minor compared to the RCC - things like pews in Church, iconography and Church art styles, beards for clergy, degree of involvement allowed in secular culture, that sort of thing.
If not, has there been a call for modernization from any of the different Orthodox Churches?
Some Orthodox jurisdictions are more open to minor "modernization" than others. There have been internal Orthodox schisms over modernization issues - the biggest of which involves the calendar. The so-called "Old Calenderists" split from the main body of the Orthodox when we moved to the Western calendar for much of our Liturgical reckoning. But these "ultra Orthodox" groups tend to be very small.
How have you withstood change?
IMO, by keeping "first things first," never being open to debate about core issues of the faith, while at the same time perhaps being more flexible than the RCC on issues of less significance.
Last question: What is OCA?
The Orthodox Church of America. Super-condensed version of the story: Orthodoxy came to America with missionaries and immigrants from multiple Orthodox Patriarchates (Greece, Russia, the Middle East, etc.) These groups each maintained allegiance to the Patriarchs of their homelands. This is completely unacceptable from a canonical perspective, or any valid Orthodox perspective, because it has led to overlap - multiple bishops for the same territory, i.e. both a Greek-affiliated and a Russian-affiliated bishop for Boston.
The bishops in America continue to meet and discuss how to fix this situation. Old World politics complicates things. The Russians were the ones who started in America the way its supposed to be done, by sending missionaries to places like Alaska and California in the 19th century. The Russian-affiliated Orthodox asked their parent Church, the Moscow Patriarch, for independence. It was granted, and the Russian-affiliated Church in America changed its name to "OCA" to reflect the fact that it was no longer bound to Russia. But the Orthodox affiliated to other Old World parishes didn't recognize this independence. Very sad, very confusing, and in the end pretty meaningless. We'll eventually get to the point where there is a unified American Orthodox Church. My bishop yesterday asked our forgiveness for the inability of the bishops to make this happen yet. But its coming.
Wonderful! We have some great cross-jurisdictional work being done in our area, including an Orthodox nursing home supported jointly by all the regional parishes. But we're all in communion, so the Eucharist unites us.
I'm not familiar with what kind of episcopal dialogue is going on between the ROCOR and the OCA, or the MP. Hopefully something. Seems like a potential unifier are the saints, especially since both parties have canonized St. John Maximovitch (I think), and he was ROCOR.
I heard this weekend that the Ecumenical Patriarch came on a private visit to Boston a few weeks ago, and said that the time for Orthodox unity in America still hasn't arrived. Sad.
Now that you point it out, this is fascinating. Do the Uniates (or whatever we're supposed to call them - Eastern Rite Catholics?) actually proclaim the foundational Orthodox doctrines with which the RCC disagrees?!? And if they do, what is Rome's perspective on how then the two bodies can be in communion?
May the peace of Christ be with you all, today and always.
Freeper Wordsmith
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