Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn) II

[Overtaxed]

I thought that the names of all the Valar were known (and Tom wasn't one of them). I can handle the Green Man nature spirit. Every time I get to "The Bombadil Question" I always end up arguing in circles!

[Wordsmith]

Stealth Valar?

[Overtaxed]

LOL That's one explanation I've heard. I'm sure there are a bunch of Tolkien scholars who have papers and essays and what not about the "Bombadil Question" each with their own theory. To tell you the truth, I've never given Bombadil this much thought before. I'm always trying to get to Bree!

[Wordsmith]

Agreed. My current reading, though, is aloud to my kids and wife. My kids love Bombadil because he's funny, and my wife gets the warm fuzzies over Tom and Goldmoon. So I'm feeling a new appreciation for the guy!

Who's Old Man Willow? Is he a bad ent, or something else?

[Overtaxed]

As nearly as I can tell, Old Man Willow is a tree spirit.

Tom's words laid bare the hearts of trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth....But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow...

It seems that Old Man Willow doesn't walk around like Ents do.

[sweetliberty]

"Why couldn't he have gotten rid of the Ring? Or why couldn't he at least have put it permanently out of Sauron's reach, thus saving our friends from having to complete their dangerous journey?"

That is perhaps the irony in it. Tom was not concerned with the affairs of men and wizards and elves and hobbits beyond how they pertained to what went on within the boundaties of HIS world. For him to have become part of the quest would have required an interest of a kind which would have rendered him vulnerable to the ring and therefore the very qualities that make him seem to be the ideal candidate would be invalidated were he to become involved. That's just my theory.

[ksen]

Aahh, sort of a Tolkensien Catch-22.

-ksen

[sweetliberty]

"sort of a Tolkensien Catch-22."

Yeah, exactly. I mean it would be a natural first thought when realizing that Tom wasn't effected by the ring, but then one has to think about the "why" of it.

[LinnieBeth]

I remember that when Tom is introduced, the phasing was something like, '...he was there at the beginning, etc." the echoes where like, 'in the beginning was the Word,..."
I felt that he wasn't just innocent, but that he understood everything including evil so thoroughly, beginning to end, that that knowledge lent him the ability not to be tempted. Kinda like, he could see right through it to the end, and then not begin that journey.

As a Christian person, it's "overcoming" temptations that strengthen us, but also, as we mature, we are tempted less frequently because we understand evil.
Did that make sense?

[sweetliberty]

Actually, yes it does make sense. I'm not quite ready to elevate Tom to God-likeness though, but I understand what you're saying.

[Wordsmith]

OK, following on your theme. Tom was there in the beginning. One of Tom's most defining characteristics is his love for Goldmoon. Tom has an intimate relationship with the natural world. Is Tom an Adam figure?

[JenB]

I have to disagree with your "Bombadil as Christ-figure" idea... to me, it just isn't there. He's not innocent because he knows everything; he's innocent because he doesn't care. Things that are outside his domain don't bother him at all. I don't think they are "real" to him.

[Restorer]

I thought that the names of all the Valar were known (and Tom wasn't one of them). I can handle the Green Man nature spirit. Every time I get to "The Bombadil Question" I always end up arguing in circles!

In the Sillmarillion, there were a huge number of creatures who participated in "The Music of the Ainur," which foreshadowed the creation and history of Earth.

Many of these entered Arda and dwelt there when it was created. The 15 most powerful were the Valar, the single most powerful of whom was Melkor, the original Dark Lord, of whom Sauron was only a servant.

I would assume Tom B. was one of these Ainur, who were called the Maiar. They were mostly the followers and people of the Valar, but Tom was probably a free-lancer. If so, he was older than Middle Earth or Arda itself. Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf were other Maiar who were presumably older than Arda. Although some Maiar reproduced, so some of them might not be older than the Earth.

Treebeard was born(?) on Middle Earth and at the end of the Third Age might be the oldest "native" still alive.

[LinnieBeth]

"Bombadil as Christ-figure" idea... t

I have some problems with it too, I suppose I found the statement as having been there from the beginning and all, an echo of Christ, but between him and Goldberry, I came to see them more like "Mother Nature"...???
For a guy in his own sphere, he seemed very knowledgeable of things going on outside it, and "the nature of things" people, plants, other creatures.
I don't really know, I'm a recent convert to LOTR

[Overtaxed]

I would assume Tom B. was one of these Ainur, who were called the Maiar.

I thought that the Maiar were beings on the same "level" as Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron all of whom were affected by the ring. Bombadil seems to have powers greater than these (or at least greater than Gandalf and Saruman.)

[Restorer]

Tom B. could be a Maiar, just one of a different "type." His power is limited to a very small area, the Old Forest, but in that area it is very concentrated and therefore powerful. In some of Tolkien's unpublished tales, he portrays Middle Earth itself as Melkor's "Ring." He sinks his power into it and into his armies and slaves to gain control over them. But then he is faced with the dilemma that his power is widely dispersed and he may be unable to concentrate it in time when needed.

Tolkien's implication is that this is why the Host of the West is able to fairly easily defeat Melkor/Morgoth at the end of the First Age. He has sunk so much of his power into controlling Middle EArth that he has little left to fight the attacking Host.

Maybe Tom B has gone the other direction. His originally much lesser power is so highly concentrated that it is able to resist even the power of the Ring.

Also, I see his resistance to the Ring as not one of power so much as one of attitude. He just doesn't care about what the Ring can tempt him with.

[Sam Cree]

I think Bombadil was originally conceived by Tolkien outside of the Middle Earth and Silmarillion mythology. I'm not real convinced that Tolkien ever very specifically defined who he was.

I seem to remember Gandalf, in describing his unsuitability as an ally, saying that ultimately Bombadil would fall to Sauron as Sauron is able to torture even the earth. This seems to imply at least a connection with the earth itself.

[Restorer]

Gandalf said something along the line that if all other resistance failed and Tom Bombadil was the only one left standing, he would be unable to defy Sauron. Not surprising, I think.

[Sam Cree]

Perhaps you're right, though I was seeing Bombadil's (potential) fall as parallel with the (potential) destruction of earth itself.

[Sam Cree]

I guess what I'm saying, and you guys can tell me if you think I'm wrong, is that Bombadil is almost a metaphor for earth itself and therefore wouldn't participate in a conflict on earth's surface any more than earth itself would.