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To: rightwingreligiousfanatic; Lil'freeper
Hmmmmm, those are great ideas. I had not got to either of those stories in The Silmarillion.

Thanks.

42,772 posted on 11/20/2002 12:30:51 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen
I had not got to either of those stories in The Silmarillion.

Well, for Goodness' sake, hurry up! ;)

I have a few other betrayals to mention... from the First Age, the betrayal of Maedhros' army by the sons of Ulfang the Easterling during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, which was the final defeat of the armies of the Noldor in Beleriand).

From the Second Age, Celebrimbor using the knowledge of Sauron to create the Rings of Power... although one could make the argument that Celebrimbor was more of a dupe than a betrayer, I suppose.

And, here's one I bet no one would think of... Sauron himself. Originally, like Saruman, Sauron was one of the Maiar associated with Aulë. But, he was seduced into the service of Melkor and became his most powerful servant.

42,813 posted on 11/20/2002 6:26:21 PM PST by Bear_in_RoseBear
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To: ksen
Here's a good passage from the Akallabeth. The Numenoreans were great mariners but were forbidden by the Valar to sail westward out of the sight of their shores. The king of Numenor, Ar-Pharazon, has heard that in the east, in Middle-earth, Sauron is claiming the title of King of Men and the king desires it for himself. He goes to Middle-earth to battle Sauron but Sauron surrenders himself without a fight. The king decided to take him back to Numenor as a hostage and a vassal. BUT...

Such was the cunning of his [Sauron] mind and mouth, and the strength of his hidden will, that ere three years had passed he had become closest to the secret counsels of the King; for flattery sweet as honey was ever on his tounge, and knowledge he had of many things yet unrevealed to Men... Then slowly a change came over the land, and the hearts of the Elf-friends were sorely troubled...

For now, having the ears of men, Sauron with many arguments gainsaid all that the Valar had taught; and he bade men think that in the world, in the east and even in the west there lay yet many seas and many lands for their winning, wherein was wealth uncounted. And still, if they should at the last come to the end of those lands and seas, beyond all lay the Ancient Darkness. 'And out of it the world was made. For Darnkess alone is worshipful, and the Lord thereof may yet make other worlds to be gifts to those that serve him, so that the increase of their power shall find no end.'

And Ar-Parazon said: 'Who is the Lord of the Darkness?' Then behind locked doors Sauron spoke to the King and he lied saying: 'It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him...seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves.... his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they.'

Then Ar-Pharazon the King turned back to the worship of the Dark, and of Melkor the Lord thereof, at first in secret, but ere long openly and in the face of his people; and they for the most part followed him.

Afterwards, the small portion that are faithful to the Valar are persecuted and sacraficed, the White Tree is chopped down and burned on an altar to Melkor, the King becomes a tyrant, and finally Sauron convinces the King to break the Ban. Numenor is swallowed by the sea and all perished except for a small group of the faithful that had made its way to the north-western shores of Middle-earth.

You have hit on an interesting theme that seems to be repeated throughout on different levels, that of 'seeking after hidden knowledge.' It corrupts on all levels, from Valar down to Man.

42,858 posted on 11/21/2002 6:19:42 AM PST by Lil'freeper
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