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To: Overtaxed
I just wonder if we aren't assuming PJ gave it any thought at all that Arwen needed to pander to any agenda. He may have just thought it was cool. We may be seeing agenda where there is none. A common FR trait, don't you think?
17,954 posted on 08/10/2002 12:10:32 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog

He may have just thought it was cool.

Or maybe he was running out of Elves to send. If you're not going to have Glorfindel or the sons of Elrond, it narrows it down to Elrond or Arwen. So Elrond would send his own daughter into danger.......:)

17,959 posted on 08/10/2002 12:23:58 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: HairOfTheDog
I just wonder if we aren't assuming PJ gave it any thought at all that Arwen needed to pander to any agenda. He may have just thought it was cool. We may be seeing agenda where there is none. A common FR trait, don't you think?

Okay, I can't resist weighing in on this point either. WRTF's concern that it is a 'feminist' consipiracy is WAAY off base IMHO...I am as anti-feminazi as a female can get, y'all...and this never once occured to me in any form of cynacism. I was GLAD PJ brought Arwen to the forefront...not be cause there is a surplus of men that need to be counteracted...and not because I wanted to 'butch' her up...but because in READING THE BOOK, I DON'T REALLY GIVE A DARN ABOUT ARWEN...OR ARAGORN...OR THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER.

And don't give me the usual crap about 'women were supposed to be sweet and retiring and adored from afar and not do any demanding things like fend for themselves or know how to travel in the wilderness'. Its not feminazi for me to object to that...its pure historical reference. I get the idea that so many people think Arwen should not be any stronger than weak tea in character because of the typical medieval ideal of courtly love...which put women on pedestals and kept them from anything more dangerous than a hangnail. I like PJ's view of the historical reference as drawing from BEYOND historical reference when women did have stronger influence in society and probably had every bit of training as a soldier. There are several VERY strong military activly warrior like women in English history (Buttica, Helen of Aquitane, Joan d'Arc).

And who the heck was Glorfindel anyway?? Pantywaste if you ask me!!! He put Frodo on a horse and sent him forward to meet up with the Black Riders ALONE!!!!!. STUPID Elf, if you ask me. Arwen took him under her protection and fought like mad to get him away. THAT is what an elf should do...THAT is what a woman who wishes to protect a smaller one would do. Having Arwen replace Glorfindel and wrapping Frodo up and protecting him was a STRONG maternal and elven message for the character...and I thought it was BRILLIANT that PJ had Arwen passing on the 'grace' Frodo needed to heal in the beginning (this was done in Minas Tirith when Frodo went to tell Aragorn that he wanted to go home). It means a HELL of a lot more that Arwen is established as someone who gives a damn about the hobbits and Frodo in particular and will mean that much more to Frodo leaving for Beyond the Sea.

In short, in some ways, I believe PJ IMPROVED Tolkien's work.

I thought Arwen was brilliant. I meant compare the way PJ had Arwen and Aragorn sharing their thoughts with each other to Lucas' p*ss-poor imitation of love in AOTC...I was gagging all through out their little 'trysts.' I kept thinking how stupid Amidala was and the little bimbette deserved a creep like Anakin, especially if she wasn't going to bring him to task on some of his more arrogant ideas. And that little 'fireside' chat and the little act of 'oh I cant believe you're making a pass at me while I sit here in my provocative black dress and hair down and giggle and flirt and then say you shouldnt have kissed me'...ACK!!!!!!!!!!!!

what a bimbo.

yeah, compare that to Arwen telling Aragorn "it is mine to give to whom I wish...like my heart..."

*WOW!*

18,220 posted on 08/12/2002 9:13:38 AM PDT by Alkhin
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