The New Hobbit Hole

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The New Hobbit Hole
Concerning Hobbits
The New Hobbit Chronicles

This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.

In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:

Our discussion has been light:

It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog

However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB

Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr

Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog

Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB

Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed

To the very philosophical:

…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla

To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…

…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB

Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog

…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1

Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed

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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom

…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253

Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed

So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.

[Sam Cree]

Considering the degraded state of the comtemporary public school system, it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to understand that intelligent, educated, loving parents are going to do a much better (measured in light years) job educating their kids than public school. I doubt there could possibly be a more caring teacher than a loving parent. The difference in measured results really should be a surprise to no one.

But it's also pretty clear that homeschooling would not be the right choice for all. Some may not find it desirable, while many are simply not capable. After all, the right to set and pursue goals of our own choice is what has made America what it is (was?).

When my kids started school, 18 years ago, homeschooling was not an option we were really aware of, I'm not sure we'd have chosen it if it was. Anyway, we purposely moved to an area with a good school district. Through 5th grade the public schools were really good + us parents were very involved w/ PTA, volunteering, etc., most of us even became personal friends with teachers. It seemed we were always over at school. Interestingly, most (not all) of the parents of the black kids who were bused in were never there, didn't show up at meetings as much, etc. (with the expected results in their kids' performance).

But by junior high (even though still in the same highly rated district), it was obvious that an education was only marginally available. The faculty seemed to regard public school primarily as a being for their benefit, with any education the kids might get as distantly second in importance. The kids were incidental, so to speak. So, our kids went to private school, it was costly, but they did very well and got the education we wanted for them.

Both my kids made life long close friends in school, played team sports, etc., and avoided the drug scene with no trouble. My daughter was active in student gov't. all the way through. I do think there are some advantages to a school atmosphere.

[Sam Cree]

"I've always had Krispy Kremes around"

I've just "rediscovered" them in the past year. Now they're sold everywhere. They do give good practice in self restraint. Difficult to be successful.

The bagels look great, thank you.

[ksen]

HOTD: I am completely comfortable with the institution of public schooling... and I do see benefits to society in it. From putting everyone together, we create, or have the opportunity to create Americans, rather than individual groups who stick with and listen only to their own.

Penny1: You raise a very good point about the emphasis on the "individual" as being a bit troubling--America has lost much of its sense of community, and while individualism is a big part of our national identity, it's not always preferable...

Why do you think government schools are necessary to produce patriotic Americans? I would argue that training children to become “Americans” began its decline with the federal government getting itself involved in the school system. Remember the system we have today we’ve only had since the early 1900’s (I think around the 1930’s, but I may be mistaken).

How on earth did we manage to have good Americans (as opposed to a ragtag nation of individuals) before the federal government got involved? Schooling used to be the purview of the family and the church. That system produced our best thinkers, our best presidents, our best generals, our best inventors, etc.

Today’s homeschoolers are attempting to recreate what used to be an outstanding educational system. A place where children are taught to become thinking Americans, not just cogs in the corporate machine. Children aren’t taught to think in today’s schools, they are being trained to work at a job.

-Kevin

[Corin Stormhands]

Don't forget the coffee!

I never forget the coffee!

[Corin Stormhands]

Now they're sold everywhere.

Ah, but the boxes you find in your grocery store aren't the real Krispy Kremes...

You must have them hot.

[2Jedismom]

They had street signs put up just for the opening day that say "Expect delays", so I think I'll avoid that part of town for a while. I may try to get some this afternoon. The store is going to be continuously making doughnuts until Thanksgiving, 24 hours a day.

Well, good morning all! I've had my coffee and a granola bar...time to take the boys to VBS.

[ksen]

Meant to ping you guys to #8563.

BTW, Good morning all!

-Kevin

[Overtaxed]

You must have them hot.

I know that! :)

[Corin Stormhands]

I know that! :)

I knew you did. I was responding to Sam's comment that "they're sold everywhere..."

[HairOfTheDog]

I didn't say it was necessary to create patriotic Americans... and I am quite certain that all of you here are bringing your kids up to be "good americans". But I saw a sense of community and the necessity of mingling with, and getting to know everyone else as one outcome of "school". For purpose of discussion I don't care who runs it, although I would propose that the schools are still very much locally controlled.

Relax a little ksen, I don't know a thing about homeschooling and it seems foreign to me... I know that the most caring of parents are the ones that may decide to home school.

For me, questions arise when I see it as such a definate trend among conservatives, for the reasons I listed. Mine is a concern from the community, for the community as a whole.

[HairOfTheDog]

Oh - And Good morning!

Donuts are too sweet for me in the morning! I prefer croissants as a breaksfast pastry... Does this place make those?

[Penny1]

What I was thinking about was not just patriotism, but involvement in the larger community. Now, granted, homeschoolers can teach their kids to be involved in their community, but not all will do so. And being in public school practically guarantees children will become involved with the people who live in their community, though sometimes not in good ways!

Beyond that, the parents also become more involved in the community if they become involved in their child's education at a public school.

I guess what really strikes me about the whole thing, as a Christian, is that in public school Christian kids have a way of impacting others in a positive way. While the "bad element" at school could have an adverse affect on the "good kids," the good kids also have an opportunity to be a positive, personal influence on their peers. It gives kids a place to witness. However, I totally understand not wanting to put one's kids on the front lines...

The other thing that I look back on is the fact that in high school, I learned to resist the pressure of my peers at a time when I was still under the protection of my parents. That made college much easier to deal with.

And now...I'm late for work....later all!

....and Good Morning! ;)

[HairOfTheDog]

Check in when you can Penny! - We'll be here!

[Corin Stormhands]

Donuts are too sweet for me in the morning!

I'm sorry, I don't understand. What are you saying here?

[ksen]

Relax a little ksen,

Oh, alright *breathe in* *breathe out* There! ;^)

I didn't mean to jump on you. The point that I was trying to make was that America had this sense of community before the federal government was involved in the schools. I would point out that our sense of community has gone down since federal involvement with the schools began.

I have no objection to local communities getting together and running a school system. That is the way schooling used to happen in this country. My main objection with today's public schools is with the federal involvement and the lock the teacher's union has on the system.

Get those two things out and I may even consider sending my kids to a local school.

-Kevin

[HairOfTheDog]

"Donuts are too sweet for me in the morning"? Is that a bizaare statement? - Have I unwittingly displayed my freaky side?

Too much sugar on an empty stomach doesn't sit right with me... especially glazed or frosted donuts, bear claws and the like... I normally don't go for donuts if there are crossants or other breads around.

[Overtaxed]

But I saw a sense of community and the necessity of mingling with, and getting to know everyone else as one outcome of "school".

I don't know about the rest of the country but here, the schools have done a pretty good job of destroying the sense of community. Every year the school board changes school assignments to "close the achievement gap." The way they shuttle those kids around every year, it's a wonder if they have school friends at all. (I get an earful from disgruntled parents every year)

Also...this story from an ex-public school teacher...at the high school his daughter went to one of the athletic teams was in the state finals (girl's soccer, I believe). Do you think the student body turned up to support the team? No way. Just (some of) the kids' parents were there. How's that for community?

[HairOfTheDog]

I fully agree with you on bussing, and monkeying around with district boundaries to aritificially create the right "mix". It is one of the things that everyone should complain about, because it is a winnable argument. But we can't complain if we bug out.

A lot of the problems could be fixed by re-introducing a conservative argument into the discussion... If we are missing because we have long-ago abandoned it, these things are bound to happen.

No one has ever liked girl's sports. They throw (kick) like girls. hehehehe

[ksen]

A lot of the problems could be fixed by re-introducing a conservative argument into the discussion...

But that would mean getting conservatives to put their kids back in harm's way. I don't think you'd be able to convince enough of them (us) to do that in order to make a difference.

Schools are still paid for, mostly, from property taxes. There is no reason that taxpayers in a community can't demand, whether their children are in the school or not, that the school their taxes support have high standards and accountability. That way a change could be forced without endangering the kids.

If conservative adults want to get involved and try to change the school system, then more power to them and I pray they succeed. I just don't think it is fair to ask parents to sacrifice the well being of their children in the hope of maybe, someday seeing the school system fixed. Sometimes things need to come crashing down before they can truly be set right.

-Kevin

[Corin Stormhands]

I would point out that our sense of community has gone down since federal involvement with the schools began.

I would agree. Get the federal government involved and anything goes downhill. Still, we have pretty strong local control here.