Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
-----------------------------------------
Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Since I quit watching TV about 10 years ago, and also don't go to movies much, I'd never seen him before, so he worked pretty well for me in the role.
Better catch up. There will be a test.
He did 55 5 minute interviews for the US press that day and that's the first mention I've seen about it.
Probably this can be explained by the fact that there are very few dwarf women. So, the ones that are married, they have to work overtime, and have lots of babies.
Well okay, it's just g'nad and I are here havin' to lead all the elf-bashin...(but RMD has been helping today!)
BTW, Corin, my sister's playing the Mannheim Steamroller concert at the Richmond Colliseum Saturday night.
Cool. I wanted to go, but we have four performances on Saturday.
...Shhhhhh! You'll blow my cover! :)
The other day we covered “The Ainulindale” which recorded the creation of Middle-Earth by Iluvatar. We were also briefly introduced to the Valar. One of the Valar rebelled from Iluvatar, his name was Melkor.
The next section of the book is called “Valaquenta”. The subtitle given to this section is “Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar (the Elves).”
The “Valaquenta” begins with a recap of the creation of Middle-Earth. Some of the Valar were so enamored by Iluvatar’s creation that he allowed them to serve him on Middle-Earth.
We learn that there are two groups of “spirits” that enter Middle-Earth at this time. The first are the Valar. In Biblical terms I believe they would be considered Cherubim. The Valar are the more powerful of the two groups.
”Valaquenta” continues with a section called “Of the Valar.” This section describes the Valar who entered Middle-Earth to serve Iluvatar and what portions of the world they had control over.
First of the Valar in Middle-Earth is Manwe. Tolkien writes this about Manwe, “He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and ruler of all that dwell therein.” Manwe, also called Sulimo, has dominion over the air, winds, clouds, and flying things.
Manwe’s spouse was Varda, known as Lady of the Stars. The Elves also know Varda as Elbereth. Remember when Sam meets Shelob? He cries out in desperation “Elbereth Gilthoniel!”, and is delivered from his trouble.
Second of the “male” Valar is Ulmo. Ulmo is know as the Lord of the Waters. Ulmo has no spouse.
The third Valar is Aule. Aule delights in making things with his hands. He fashioned the gems in the earth and taught the Noldor (Elves) how to make things. Later on in The Silmarillion we will learn that Aule created the Dwarves.
Aule’s spouse is Yavanna who is known as the Giver of Fruits. She delights in seeing things grow. Reading the descriptions of Aule and Yavanna brings Gimli and Galadriel to my mind.
Next is Namo, he is the keeper of the dead. He dwells in a place called Mandos. His spouse is called Vaire, the Weaver.
After Namo is his brother Irmo who is over visions and dreams. His spouse is Este, the Healer.
Just as Ulmo is alone, so to is Nienna, sister to Namo and Irmo. The rebellion of Melkor affected her so much that she turned to mourning and weeping. She lives by herself, yet she also spends much time in Mandos, the home of her brother. Tolkien says that “those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope.”
The next of the Valar is named Tulkas. He is a great warrior who fights with his hands and stays on the ground. He is dependable, but takes no thought for yesterday or tomorrow. Nessa is the spouse of Tulkas. She spends her time with the gentle creatures of the forest.
The final Valar is Orome. Like Tulkas, Orome is a strong warrior, but he is skilled in all sorts of weaponry. Orome spends his time hunting and killing evil creatures. Orome’s spouse is named Vana. Vana has an attachment to birds and flowers.
The next section deals with the Maiar. I believe the correspond to the Seraphim of the Bible. The Maiar were not as powerful as the Valar and served as servants to the Valar.
The final section is about the enemy. The enemy, of course, is Melkor. Melkor was a Valar who rebelled against Iluvatar and wanted worship and glory for himself. He hated Iluvatar and the other Valar and always looked for a way to destroy their works.
Gandalf was known by many names, i.e. Gandalf, Mithrandir. His Maiar name was Olorin. Read this bit that was written by Tolkien about Olorin:
Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put in their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
Now I think all of that is extremely interesting. It also raises some questions for me. If Gandalf was the wisest of the Maiar, why was Saruman known as the wise, and why was Saruman the leader of the Istari?
The bolded part makes me think of the transformation of Theoden.
One other thing, when I read the part about Gandalf learning patience and pity from Nienna, it brought to mind the scene in Moria between Gandalf and Frodo where Gandalf urges Frodo to show pity to Gollum.
No. But you're making my brain hurt.
Because Saruman was better looking, told racy jokes to the elves and had a great personality!
Just kidding, Kevin. I haven't read TS yet, so I haven't a clue.
Hugo Weaving does have a great sinister voice. And I love the stern looks!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.