Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
I have no problem with that Rosie. Not everyone has to go to college. But I think you're an exception.
If you decide to homeschool your kids, I know from our conversations here, that you'll prepare yourself first and not just assume you can do it because you went to school. Am I making any sense with that?
As for higher education, I went to a private Christian school and am hoping my kids will do the same. But I also trust some of the public universities and depending on their field of study, I wouldn't mind if my boys went there.
Don't tell the cave troll...;-)
Doh!
But also because I believe schools are much more local than that, and horror stories in a book will not be that helpful in determining what the situation is right here at my own schools... So that is why I am not going to promise to read the book. I just probably won't...
I certainly wasn’t trying to force you to read something you don’t want to. I’m sorry if it came across that way.
The book is not just anecdotes. Mr. Stormer examines those who were instrumental in bringing about “government” schools. The people who set up this system were very open about their agenda. They were out to change society through the younger generations. This goes back to the early twentieth century with John Dewey.
So if you agree that these "bad" schools are a recent phenomenon, then there must not be anything inherently evil if they were once OK...
I would submit that once the federal government became involved the school system went bad. This system has never been ok. It has been continually degenerating until we have our present system. And it will continue to degenerate until we get the federal government and the teachers’ union out.
What do I suggest? - I guess push for conservatives on school boards and go to school board meetings if your kids are in school. If no conservatives are on the ballot, then run. I would guess your school boards at "bad" schools meet alone with little intervention from the public. No one goes to meetings. Impact things. Go to visit, volunteer in classrooms, meet with administrators.
Those are good ideas. However, they will ultimately be futile until the fedgov is removed from the schooling business.
Thanks for your thoughts Hair.
Ok…..
1) Private schools: I'm at least a few years older than you and I grew up in the south. My first grade year was the year Virginia schools were desegregated. I still remember that was the conversation on the way to school my first day. As such, I've always been skeptical of private schools, particularly "Christian" private schools because a lot of them were formed, not for educational reasons, but for segregation reasons.
You could always investigate the school and the church that runs it. That should tell you if they exist merely to continue segregation.
2) Homeschooling: I agree that it's great for some families. I think you (ksen), 2J, SuziQ and the others (Jen's family) are all quite well prepared to homeschool your children. But a lot of people aren't. I may insult some folks here, but I think if all you have is a high school diploma that you don't have any business homeschooling your children. No, you don't need an education degree, but you need more than high school.
Why aren’t parents with a high-school degree qualified to teach their own children through high school? Especially these days with the plethora of helps that are available for homeschooling families?
The love and care the parent will give the child(ren) will far outweigh their lack of advanced degrees.
And I have a real problem with folks who want to homeschool their kids to keep them away from all the evil in the world. Hear me out. It's a good thing to limit what your kids are exposed to. But at some point, they've got to know what the real world is like.
What point is that? 5 years old? 8 years old? 13 years old?
When you are trying to nurture a new tree you don’t stick them out in a hurricane at a young age to help them learn how to weather it. You keep them inside and feed them and care for them until they are strong enough to weather the storms.
I'm reading that series because I think the story line (and their interpretation) is intriguing. But the writing is crap. Last year during Christmas rehearsals I was reading one and so many people from our choir came up to me and said "aren't those books just wonderful? They're the best thing I've ever read." [insert puke smilie here]
Yep, the writing there is pretty junky.
I'm on my soapbox here because I adamantly refuse to fall for the line that just because something is "Christian" that it is "quality."
Ok, I can agree with that.
And THAT's why I'll never agree that homeschooling is for everyone.
Why? Because some Christian writing is not quality? I’ll bet those Christian authors were not homeschooled so I don’t see how you are making the connection.
Oohh, that's right!
25 days until Extended DVD release!
61 days until TTT!
Would conservatives have more impact in that argument if they had not already detached themselves from the schools? I think they would.
The public, including the liberals, need workable solutions from us if they are to be swayed to our side. When we talk about disbanding the Federal DOE, and they ask, what would replace it, we need to be able to say "locally controlled schools", and back that up by supporting local schools, not just "homeschooling". Because like it or not, they aren't going to be able to jump on that bandwagon, its as foreign to them as us suggesting we all switch to breathing water. It doesn't give them a vision they can take in and use.
I hadn't planned on it but it sounds like I already agree with the author.
From what I hear from co-workers and neighbors who are parents, most of the teachers don't even know their own material.
Some may be. Many just aren't.
The love and care the parent will give the child(ren) will far outweigh their lack of advanced degrees.
So someone who graduated with a 1.5 GPA is qualified to teach their kids just because they love them?
What point is that? 5 years old? 8 years old? 13 years old?
That's a decision that each parent needs to make for each child. But I think as Christians we do a great disservice to our young people by not letting them know what the real world is like. There's a big difference between not letting your kids participate in/view something/read something and not letting them know that something exists.
Shelter a kid from all the evil of the world and when they finally get out from under your care, the evil will destroy them.
I’ll bet those Christian authors were not homeschooled so I don’t see how you are making the connection.
The Left Behind books were just an example. The point (again) is that just because something has a Christian message there is no guarantee of quality. Just because parents are Christians there is no guarantee that they have the ability to teach their children.
I believe conservatives have tried what you espouse. It didn't work, so some are abandoning the system.
I think it went something like: try, no influence, abandon; not abandon, no influence, try.
This is where I get lost in the extremist language. We are talking about letting your kids mingle with other kids who come from families that do not all like yours and be taught by teachers who may vote for a different political party. It ain't orcs with daggers.
I sometimes wonder, is the evil that parents here fear really that your child may hear a different philosophy in class, without you there to filter it, and that your child might agree with them on something? - That they may question or disagree with the parent when they grow up?
I suppose I did, but you know what? - I heard all kinds of views in high school that were not like my dad's, and I recognized it where it diverged... I talked about it and debated with my Dad, debated where I stood with kids in class, and came back around to a view pretty close to my dad's anyway. But that view was honestly achieved. I had the freedom to hear other views, and my dad seemed confident that what he said would be the thing that stuck in the end. In other words... relax. You're right. Your kids will question that, but if you are right, they will come back.
From what I hear most teachers do not send their own children to the public school system.
Is that an authorization to spam?
Ditto that!
I've worked with ex-teachers, folks whose mothers were teachers and left, people that decided not to teach, etc. I don't bring up the public school situation unless I want to get an earful!
About this reform thing. "Traditional" public schools have done/ are doing anything possible to sink the charter schools here.
That’s really not a fair characterization. Who should determine whether a parent is “qualified” to teach her own child at home?
So someone who graduated with a 1.5 GPA is qualified to teach their kids just because they love them?
Do you really think most parents graduated with a 1.5 GPA? I graduated high school with a GPA of 2.0-2.5. Does that mean I am no longer qualified to homeschool? My wife has only a year and a half of college. Should she not teach our 7th grade daughter?
That's a decision that each parent needs to make for each child. But I think as Christians we do a great disservice to our young people by not letting them know what the real world is like. There's a big difference between not letting your kids participate in/view something/read something and not letting them know that something exists.
Shelter a kid from all the evil of the world and when they finally get out from under your care, the evil will destroy them.
There’s a difference between letting your kid know what the world is like and putting him in their care for over 30 unsupervised hours a week.
I think the opposite. I think Christian parents are doing their children a great disservice by subjecting their children to a system that is diametrically opposed to what the parents are trying to teach their children.
The Left Behind books were just an example. The point (again) is that just because something has a Christian message there is no guarantee of quality. Just because parents are Christians there is no guarantee that they have the ability to teach their children.
I would still trust the average Christian parent with the education of their own children.
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