The New Hobbit Hole

[RosieCotton]

Maybe it was just a device Tolkien used in the Hobbit in order to get Bilbo out of the caves. Then when LoTR took shape Tolkien couldn't discard that attribute of the Ring without causing questions so he was stuck with it.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Not to mention that in The Hobbit, he doesn't say anything about what it's like to actually wear the ring, just that it makes Bilbo invisible. If it changed the wearer's view so much, you'd think Bilbo would have been a little more afraid to put it on! But he DOES say something in the trilogy about things looking differently when wearing the ring, no?

[Sam Cree]

I don't know, maybe I'm blind, but I'm not too sure I see us as particularly arrogant. Perhaps some of us are shallow if that's a sin?

Most Americans are good folks, IMO, though, sure, there're plenty of jerks, too.

I did think Bill Clinton was intolerably arrogant.

As for LOTR, maybe Saruman was the most arrogant character.

[HairOfTheDog]

Oh yes.... in the books, the real world faded and became dark...

And when Frodo wore it, he was aware of this. But we don't hear Bilbo talk of it being scary to wear.

Here is a thought. During the time that Bilbo had the ring... Sauron was without form and powerless... So perhaps the ring did not feel its master's "call". And as time wore on, and Sauron regained his strenth, the control over it was returning. Perhaps the ring was getting scarier by the time Frodo had it, as Sauron's ability to drive it increased. In the book, it began to give Frodo visions of far off things... always towards Mordor, the eye, and the dark tower.

[Corin Stormhands]

During the time that Bilbo had the ring... Sauron was without form and powerless... So perhaps the ring did not feel its master's "call". And as time wore on, and Sauron regained his strenth, the control over it was returning.

That's what I was thinking reading through the discussion here. Help me out here with the capture/release/escape, etc. of Gollum. Could Sauron have still considered the ring lost and not have begun looking for it until Gollum came along? I'm fuzzy on the sequence of things.

But would Sauron have known that Gollum had the ring for those hundreds of years? Otherwise, why would they have considered Gollum of any value? Or was it that Gollum went looking for the ring and then got caught...

I think I've got to start reading them again...

[Overtaxed]

Did an elf ever wear the One Ring?

Not that I know of. Tom Bombadil did and he didn't disappear. And he could see Frodo when Frodo had it on.

OT, do you remember anything from Tolkien's letters that may address this?

Not right off but I'll see if I can find anything on it tonight.

[Overtaxed]

If it changed the wearer's view so much, you'd think Bilbo would have been a little more afraid to put it on!

Maybe Bilbo's view didn't change so much because Sauron wasn't as strong during most of Bilbo's ownership. Sauron's call on the Ring would have been weaker.

[HairOfTheDog]

Becoming weak and flabby, losing will, losing moral compass, like an old jock with a beer belly who quit going to church/believing in God....

Wonder if this is a radical thought. I think part of our problem is that we are trying to act like we should, as a country, have a moral compass. That we should be above such trivial matters of staking out the most territory we can, simply because we can, and defending it against any that attack it. Shouldn't the goal be to win to protect our own and nothing more?

Other animals don't make life as complicated as we do. A pride of lions just stakes out territory and raises their family on it. If another pride of lions comes around, they don't get all worried about the other pride's right to exist, they just run them off... perhaps taking that pride's former territory too, if it has good hunting on it.

I think we get ourselves in the most trouble when we are trying to act like God. I don't mean "act Godly", I mean, when we are threatened, or there are other territory battles going on that don't even involve us, we go in and try to "fix" them rather than just beat them. When did it become wrong to just feed ourselves and our own, fight off attackers, and not turn territory into a moral issue? When did we decide we have to empathize and understand both sides equally?

[2Jedismom]

I got my CD from Green Linnet. Whew! Wonder what took so long.

[HairOfTheDog]

Jen would be better for all these questions....

I don't think Sauron did knew Gollum had it, at least while he had it... 2500 years it was lost at the bottom of the river. Gollum found it and had it another 500 years or so... All that time Sauron was without form or power.

About the time Bilbo found the ring, Sauron was just beginning to take form in Mirkwood.... When he moved back to Mordor I do not remember, but Sauron was in Mirkwood still when Bilbo wandered through was he not?

Gollum, in his withdrawal and dispair perhaps wandered first into Mordor, they did not seek him out.

[Corin Stormhands]

When did it become wrong to just feed ourselves and our own, fight off attackers, and not turn territory into a moral issue?

When we lost a war that we fought for none of those reasons.

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

I don't have the energy to discuss these issues any further. Getting way too philosophical and anthropological....

How about an Elf bash!

Oops! You don't like that, do you? ;^)

[Corin Stormhands]

I do not remember, but Sauron was in Mirkwood still when Bilbo wandered through was he not?

Was he? Do we read that in the histories? Or is it mentioned in The Hobbit?

[HairOfTheDog]

I am not the one to encourage an elf-bash!

A Boromir-Bash, yes! - But you kinda took the fun out of that by making us sympathize with him so much this morning!

[Corin Stormhands]

How about an Elf bash!

Party On Dude!

[Corin Stormhands]

We could always sneak....but I wouldn't do that...

[HairOfTheDog]

It isn't mentioned in the Hobbit, only that the wood felt foul. It is either in the Shadow of the Past or the Council of Elrond.... I will do a quick search for it.

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

Thank you. I'm glad to know I had an effect.... But I don't want to be a kill-joy (except about snowpants and galoshes - Oh no, I probably shouldn't have said that)

[cringe]

[Corin Stormhands]

Okay, we'll take care of this shiney thing while you're searching...

[Corin Stormhands]

sneak...

[Corin Stormhands]

sneak...