The New Hobbit Hole

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The New Hobbit Hole
Concerning Hobbits
The New Hobbit Chronicles

This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.

In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:

Our discussion has been light:

It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog

However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB

Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr

Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog

Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB

Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed

To the very philosophical:

…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla

To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…

…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB

Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog

…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1

Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed

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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom

…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253

Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed

So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.

[Sam Cree]

"While the edges are not sharpened"

You can sharpen them, though, can't you?

when I was at the Met in NYC last month, I went and looked at all the medieval armor and swords. It was mostly 15 and 1600's though, which I suppose is modern by Middle Earth standards. It was fascinating anyway.

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

You mean Gondor is kind of dissolving into socialism? ;-)

Becoming weak and flabby, losing will, losing moral compass, like an old jock with a beer belly who quit going to church/believing in God....

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

I agree that one of the ways the ring got Boromir was by drawing him to it's percieved ability to bring him glory

A really interesting question to explore would be: What is the Ring for America today? Pride in our military prowess? Our wealth? Our (supposed) cultural superiority?

[Sam Cree]

"think Boromir wasn't really interested in ruling Gondor...just in being a military leader"

Yeah, I think that's right. Boromir just wanted to go around the place kicking a$$ and earning glory for himself, Gondor and his family. Kind of admirable, really.

[HairOfTheDog]

Lots of sense! That is it, IMHO.... The quote from Penny picked up on that element too... He values strength of body and of arms, and he is blind to spiritual strength. He just doesn't see it.

Penny I think was talking about his line in the film when he and Aragorn are talking at Lothlorien... "She said to me even now there is hope left. But I cannot see it. It is long since we had any hope."

I think that line has a lot deeper meaning than the surface meaning.

[HairOfTheDog]

What is the Ring for America today? Pride in our military prowess? Our wealth? Our (supposed) cultural superiority?

I think those things may be why we are like Boromir, but those traits are only the symptoms that made Boromir susceptable to evil... they are not the ring itself. If the ring were here, would we recognize it?

[RosieCotton]

I agree - even that late in the game he is still thinking in terms of military might. Gondor has one of the biggest, strongest armies in Middle Earth, but Boromir KNOWS they could never go head to head with Sauron's forces and win. I think he had hoped to find new, strong allies to bring back with him to Gondor, but things didn't go that way. He doesn't see any other way to do battle, so he despairs.

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

You are both right on. It is spiritual strength vs human strength. Boromir is unable to open himself up to spiritual strength and the concept that "My strength is made perfect in weakness..."

But then, are any of us?

[Sam Cree]

"A really interesting question to explore would be: What is the Ring for America today? Pride in our military prowess? Our wealth? Our (supposed) cultural superiority?"

Well, speaking for myself, I take pride in our individual liberty, which makes possible our greatness. I don't see that as parallel to the ring.

But do you think we are too proud? An awful lot of folks on the left would like to cut us down to size, I know.

Although now that I think your words through a little, I guess you mean that we are not remembering to be thankful enough to God for our wealth and our achievments.

I'm not too religious, but I think I go along with that too.

Certainly, I believe that the individual liberty that is the basis of our way of life here has been essential to our remarkable success. However, our founding fathers believed that such liberty was derived from God, or at least was a "natural" right, which is much the same thing.

[Overtaxed]

so he despairs

He's fighting the despair, though....Denethor is the one who really despairs.

[RosieCotton]

He's fighting the despair, though....Denethor is the one who really despairs.

Yes...and it destroys him.

[Sam Cree]

I don't know. I think warriors can be humble and spiritual. At the end he seemed that way, though, so he must have had some of that in him, even if he had put such things aside before.

[ksen]

If the ring were here, would we recognize it?

Now would be a good time to post that pic of the Ring on W.'s finger. ;^)

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

I guess you mean that we are not remembering to be thankful enough to God for our wealth and our achievments.

That is my basic meaning. I am concerned by the arrogance, the shallowness, and lack of humility I see so often in American culture. Even some Christians are prone to it: the Prosperity Doctrine or some such nonsense. I sometimes think we would be better off humbling ourselves in the sight of the Lord and learning what it really means that "His strength is made perfect in weakness..." Although I freely admit that I have an almost impossibly hard time doing so myself, (witness my profile page, Lets Roll! etc.... because the anger gets the better of me more often than not).

Does anyone else struggle with these issues? I feel like I'm really babbling now....

[RosieCotton]

OK, I have an odd ring-related question...why do you think Tolkien had the One Ring make the wearer invisible, but none of the other Rings do that?

[HairOfTheDog]

I always think back to that movie critic that so encapsulated why I love the story... that the movie was about "Men behaving divinely", and that the story makes you "long to be worthy of these characters, to be worthy of Middle-Earth". I always quote her because that is how I feel when I read it.

And to me, Boromir (and also his father Denethor) is the example of a "more real" person, with real failings, who was thrown into this story full of characters that are grander than life. To me, Boromir's purpose in the story is to show us what would happen if, as we read, we also felt any lure of the ring. Everyone else in the story finds whatever strength they need to finish what they must do... yet not Boromir. Is it because of his lack of faith? Maybe that is the point, I dunno.

Oft overlooked though, is that in the end even Frodo fails. He is saved in the end by luck, is he not?

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

I don't have a good take on that, although I have wondered it myself. It did not make Sauron invisible, did it. But it made mortals invisible. Did an elf ever wear the One Ring?

[ksen]

Maybe it was just a device Tolkien used in the Hobbit in order to get Bilbo out of the caves. Then when LoTR took shape Tolkien couldn't discard that attribute of the Ring without causing questions so he was stuck with it.

OT, do you remember anything from Tolkien's letters that may address this?

[RosieCotton]

Oft overlooked though, is that in the end even Frodo fails. He is saved in the end by luck, is he not?

Luck...or something higher? I guess it could be argued a couple ways!

But I think all the characters have their failings. They need each other to complete the quest, because they each have their own strengths, talents...and weaknesses. Frodo couldn't have destroyed the Ring without each of the Fellowship...and Smeagol, too.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think the nine "faded" too, at least in time... Only their cloaks gave them form.

The elven rings didn't make people invisible, but it is almost as if the rings themselves had the ability to "hide". Most people never saw them. Only Frodo saw Galadriel's, and we never saw Gandalf's or Elrond's ring.

I read somewhere that the ring gave power according to the stature and personal power of its bearer... That is why it would have been worse in the hands of Gandalf than in Frodo. For a hobbit like Bilbo, it only made him invisible when he didn't want to be seen... but really didn't take him over, because he had no desire for personal power that it could corrupt. For others, maybe it would have had other manifestations.