The New Hobbit Hole

[Sam Cree]

"While the edges are not sharpened"

You can sharpen them, though, can't you?

when I was at the Met in NYC last month, I went and looked at all the medieval armor and swords. It was mostly 15 and 1600's though, which I suppose is modern by Middle Earth standards. It was fascinating anyway.

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

You mean Gondor is kind of dissolving into socialism? ;-)

Becoming weak and flabby, losing will, losing moral compass, like an old jock with a beer belly who quit going to church/believing in God....

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

I agree that one of the ways the ring got Boromir was by drawing him to it's percieved ability to bring him glory

A really interesting question to explore would be: What is the Ring for America today? Pride in our military prowess? Our wealth? Our (supposed) cultural superiority?

[Sam Cree]

"think Boromir wasn't really interested in ruling Gondor...just in being a military leader"

Yeah, I think that's right. Boromir just wanted to go around the place kicking a$$ and earning glory for himself, Gondor and his family. Kind of admirable, really.

[HairOfTheDog]

Lots of sense! That is it, IMHO.... The quote from Penny picked up on that element too... He values strength of body and of arms, and he is blind to spiritual strength. He just doesn't see it.

Penny I think was talking about his line in the film when he and Aragorn are talking at Lothlorien... "She said to me even now there is hope left. But I cannot see it. It is long since we had any hope."

I think that line has a lot deeper meaning than the surface meaning.

[HairOfTheDog]

What is the Ring for America today? Pride in our military prowess? Our wealth? Our (supposed) cultural superiority?

I think those things may be why we are like Boromir, but those traits are only the symptoms that made Boromir susceptable to evil... they are not the ring itself. If the ring were here, would we recognize it?

[RosieCotton]

I agree - even that late in the game he is still thinking in terms of military might. Gondor has one of the biggest, strongest armies in Middle Earth, but Boromir KNOWS they could never go head to head with Sauron's forces and win. I think he had hoped to find new, strong allies to bring back with him to Gondor, but things didn't go that way. He doesn't see any other way to do battle, so he despairs.

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

You are both right on. It is spiritual strength vs human strength. Boromir is unable to open himself up to spiritual strength and the concept that "My strength is made perfect in weakness..."

But then, are any of us?

[Sam Cree]

"A really interesting question to explore would be: What is the Ring for America today? Pride in our military prowess? Our wealth? Our (supposed) cultural superiority?"

Well, speaking for myself, I take pride in our individual liberty, which makes possible our greatness. I don't see that as parallel to the ring.

But do you think we are too proud? An awful lot of folks on the left would like to cut us down to size, I know.

Although now that I think your words through a little, I guess you mean that we are not remembering to be thankful enough to God for our wealth and our achievments.

I'm not too religious, but I think I go along with that too.

Certainly, I believe that the individual liberty that is the basis of our way of life here has been essential to our remarkable success. However, our founding fathers believed that such liberty was derived from God, or at least was a "natural" right, which is much the same thing.

[Overtaxed]

so he despairs

He's fighting the despair, though....Denethor is the one who really despairs.

[RosieCotton]

He's fighting the despair, though....Denethor is the one who really despairs.

Yes...and it destroys him.

[Sam Cree]

I don't know. I think warriors can be humble and spiritual. At the end he seemed that way, though, so he must have had some of that in him, even if he had put such things aside before.

[ksen]

If the ring were here, would we recognize it?

Now would be a good time to post that pic of the Ring on W.'s finger. ;^)

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

I guess you mean that we are not remembering to be thankful enough to God for our wealth and our achievments.

That is my basic meaning. I am concerned by the arrogance, the shallowness, and lack of humility I see so often in American culture. Even some Christians are prone to it: the Prosperity Doctrine or some such nonsense. I sometimes think we would be better off humbling ourselves in the sight of the Lord and learning what it really means that "His strength is made perfect in weakness..." Although I freely admit that I have an almost impossibly hard time doing so myself, (witness my profile page, Lets Roll! etc.... because the anger gets the better of me more often than not).

Does anyone else struggle with these issues? I feel like I'm really babbling now....

[RosieCotton]

OK, I have an odd ring-related question...why do you think Tolkien had the One Ring make the wearer invisible, but none of the other Rings do that?

[HairOfTheDog]

I always think back to that movie critic that so encapsulated why I love the story... that the movie was about "Men behaving divinely", and that the story makes you "long to be worthy of these characters, to be worthy of Middle-Earth". I always quote her because that is how I feel when I read it.

And to me, Boromir (and also his father Denethor) is the example of a "more real" person, with real failings, who was thrown into this story full of characters that are grander than life. To me, Boromir's purpose in the story is to show us what would happen if, as we read, we also felt any lure of the ring. Everyone else in the story finds whatever strength they need to finish what they must do... yet not Boromir. Is it because of his lack of faith? Maybe that is the point, I dunno.

Oft overlooked though, is that in the end even Frodo fails. He is saved in the end by luck, is he not?

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

I don't have a good take on that, although I have wondered it myself. It did not make Sauron invisible, did it. But it made mortals invisible. Did an elf ever wear the One Ring?

[ksen]

Maybe it was just a device Tolkien used in the Hobbit in order to get Bilbo out of the caves. Then when LoTR took shape Tolkien couldn't discard that attribute of the Ring without causing questions so he was stuck with it.

OT, do you remember anything from Tolkien's letters that may address this?

[RosieCotton]

Oft overlooked though, is that in the end even Frodo fails. He is saved in the end by luck, is he not?

Luck...or something higher? I guess it could be argued a couple ways!

But I think all the characters have their failings. They need each other to complete the quest, because they each have their own strengths, talents...and weaknesses. Frodo couldn't have destroyed the Ring without each of the Fellowship...and Smeagol, too.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think the nine "faded" too, at least in time... Only their cloaks gave them form.

The elven rings didn't make people invisible, but it is almost as if the rings themselves had the ability to "hide". Most people never saw them. Only Frodo saw Galadriel's, and we never saw Gandalf's or Elrond's ring.

I read somewhere that the ring gave power according to the stature and personal power of its bearer... That is why it would have been worse in the hands of Gandalf than in Frodo. For a hobbit like Bilbo, it only made him invisible when he didn't want to be seen... but really didn't take him over, because he had no desire for personal power that it could corrupt. For others, maybe it would have had other manifestations.