The New Hobbit Hole

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The New Hobbit Hole
Concerning Hobbits
The New Hobbit Chronicles

This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.

In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:

Our discussion has been light:

It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog

However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB

Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr

Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog

Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB

Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed

To the very philosophical:

…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla

To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…

…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB

Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog

…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1

Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed

-----------------------------------------

Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom

…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253

Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed

So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.

[Restorer]

My two least favorite portions of the movie are the Council of Elrond and the Mines of Moria. Both seem to be poorly edited (although only by comparison with the rest of the movie, not to movies in general).

For one thing, they have Boromir immediately recognize Aragorn's name, as if everybody in Gondor knew that Aragorn was Isildur's heir, they just didn't know where he was.

PJ slips a little on portraying some of the depth of history here, I think. It's been like well over a thousand years since there's been any contact between the Rangers and Gondor and since the last King disappeared in Gondor. So when Aragorn pops up as a candidate for the throne, it would be like a claimant for the present-day British throne who's descended from the pre-Norman Anglo-Saxon Kings. Aragorn does an amazing job of convincing all these fractious aristocrats to whole-heartedly accept him as their king.

[carton253]

The scene with Aragorn/Arwen where she cheers him up with her faith in him is not realistic, IMHO, for that time in Aragorn's life. Although it might be very appropriate for the period 40 years or so earlier when they get engaged. They've obviously compressed some of the history of their relationship timewise. I don't have a real problem with that, as I think it works fairly well. The only alternative would be some type of flashback scene to Lorien, which would just confuse the newbies no end.

Again, I agree with you... but isn't in interesting the way it unfolds on screen. You have Elrond's "he has exiled himself", then you see Strider (that's how we know him at that time) reading a book. Then you see Boromir for the 2nd time. At first you think it is Boromir that will lead them. The controversy between Aragorn and Boromir is born in that scene. Strider watching. Boromir handling the sword of Narsil like it's a relic until he sees that he is watched. Then he drops it like its no big deal.

Next we have Strider pick it up and loving put it into place, and then comes Arwen who introduces the audience to Aragorn. This is the one who has chosen exile. He's the heir of the throne. He's the king. (Then comes the clunky love scene... it's beautifully done, but it's like... time out, insert obligatory love scene... okay back to the action) In the council, Legolas introduces Strider to both Boromir and Frodo. And you see the dismay in Boromir's eyes and the wonder in Frodo's.

[Overtaxed]

Nothing at all! (perhaps you could be nicer to the elveses?) hehehehehe

I will be nice to elves. I will be nice to elves. I will be nice to elves, even when Haldir looks down his nose. I will be nice to Haldir and his gang of snoots.

Hey...I'm working on it. :)

[Restorer]

I agree that PJ did an astounding job. Although I have an occasional criticism as to the flow of the movie, I wouldn't really have a clue about how to do it better.

I suspect if I had made the movie, it would have been three 9-hour films! And since I don't have his genius, they would have been true to the book, but stunk as movies.

[Restorer]

BTW, has anybody been able to pick out what book Aragorn is reading in this scene? I've tried, but haven't been able to read the title in the couple of seconds it's on screen.

[carton253]

From the script:

LEGOLAS:
This is no mere ranger. He is Aragorn, son of Arathorn. You owe him your allegiance.

BOROMIR:
Aragorn? This... is Isildur's heir?

LEGOLAS:
And heir to the throne of Gondor.

ARAGORN:
Havo dad Legolas (Sit down Legolas)

BOROMIR:
Gondor has no king. Gondor needs no king.

Well, he is Aragorn II. So, maybe (and it's a big maybe) the name Aragorn did ring a bell. Or, as Stewards, they were aware of the names of the kings. (Again, just supposition) So, they knew that Arathorn had a son named Aragorn. They are familiar with the name, but not the face.

[HairOfTheDog]

It's in the mail. - And try not to hold it against Haldir that he had is nose in the air.

I mean, did you ever consider how long it had been since the fellowship had had a bath? I think hygiene and grooming is very important to elves. Legolas never had a hair out of place, even in battle.

When Aragron walks up to Haldir, I bet he smelled real bad, and the breath was probably bad too... I didn't see the the group packing any tubes of Crest along on their way, but I bet they had it when they left Lothlorien!

[carton253]

Nah... I'm too busy looking at Aragorn.

[Restorer]

Just finished reading the section about the Rangers in the Appendix. They haven't really had any contact with Gondor since the fall of Arthedain, over a thousand years ago. I think the book makes it real clear that the men of Gondor, with possible exception of sneaky Denethor and his palantir, have completely forgotten that the Rangers are still out there.

When Boromir comes to Rivendell, he's coming to a place that the men of Gondor view as a myth, they've been out of touch with the North for so long.

[Overtaxed]

I will be nice to snoots. I will be nice to snoots..I mean, elves. I will be nice to elves.....

[2Jedismom]

Can you guys give me the links for the preview again? I've lost them! They didn't work the last time I tried, but if at first you don't succeed. . .

[2Jedismom]

Oh and good morning!!

[Overtaxed]

Good Morning! Having eggses for breakfast? :)

[carton253]

Then that's how Boromir knew... because Denethor knew what Gandalf was doing with Aragorn. He probably shared it with Boromir. What do you think?

[Overtaxed]

I dunno...seeing how proud Denethor was, I think he wouldn't tell Boromir about the whole Gandalf/Aragorn thing.

[HairOfTheDog]

# 1535 and 1546 (1546 is working at the moment)

[carton253]

I dunno... I think Denethor and Boromir were close. You can see that in the relationship Denethor has with Faramir. Of course, since Tolkien doesn't say, it is just guess work on my part.

But Restorer is right. If the kings had been gone for 1000 years from Gondor, how would Boromir have recognized the name of Aragorn, son of Arathorn. Do you have any ideas?

[2Jedismom]

With 1546, I just get this stuff. It goes on like this forever. Will it work if I keep trying it? I understand Jen's link will work if you keep trying. So, I''ll keep trying 1535. I need a fix! ;-)

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[Overtaxed]

It's just my opinion, but I see Denethor as too proud to go whining about Thorongil to anybody. And Boromir doesn't seem to resent Aragorn on the journey south.

If the kings had been gone for 1000 years from Gondor, how would Boromir have recognized the name of Aragorn, son of Arathorn. Do you have any ideas?

Not unless he recognized the name "Aragorn" from one of the old kings. Isn't our Aragorn "Aragorn II." But still that old king would have been from the Northern Kingdom and I'm not sure if the Gondor folk would keep up with Northern Kingdom lineages.

[carton253]

Of course, in the book, the tell tale sign of "kingship" was the sword that had been broken. In the Council of Elrond, Aragorn showed it to Boromir and Boromir accepted it (barely).

So, now we get a clearer picture. It wasn't the name that Boromir recognized; it was the sword. That's from the book. In the movie, it was the name, since the sword is in pieces still.