Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?

cold case christianity ^ | October 30, 2017 | J. Warner Wallace

[cowboyusa]

Creation.

[daniel1212]

There is literally more evidence of Jesus than there is of Shakespeare.

i do not know about that, but atheists usually parrot the argument that the absence of contemporary (meaning within His brief approx. 33 year life!) non-biblical evidence that Jesus was a real person means he could not have existed, yet by that measure, neither did Siddhartha Gautama, Confucius, Spartacus, Pythagoras, Sun Tzu, Leonidas the Spartan, Boudica the Celtic warrior queen, Sargon Of Akkad, Socrates, Archimedes,

[1]

and maybe even Alexander The Great, and Attila The Hun, and Homer,

[2]

whom historians overall affirm existed, as they do Jesus of Nazareth,

Likewise, requiring writings from the figures themselves negates many.

However, without any actual proof, atheists overall believe that an exceedingly vast, systematically ordered universe, exquisitely finely tuned for complex life with its profound intricate complexity and extensive diversity, can be all a result of purely natural processes.

Which requires much faith, more so I think, than that the universe logically testifies to design, requiring a First Cause (at the least), that of a being of supreme power and intelligence being behind the existence of energy and organization of matter, and laws regarding the same.

[alexander_busek]

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1) [...]

Julius Africanus lived roughly from A.D. 160 to about A.D. 240 - i.e., he wrote this roughly two centuries AFTER the Crucifixion of Christ.

Regards,

[daniel1212]

Muslims believe in the virgin birth, and believe Jesus was a great prophet, and will return some day. They do NOT, however, believe in his divinity.

More than His divinity, but more absurd, Islam denies that Jesus died for our sins, and rose again, rejecting the New Testament (at least some of Islam only affirms the Injil - Evangel in Gk. - meaning a gospel revealed to Muham-mad for which no mss exists, as being the gospel spoken of by the Qur'an), and (of course) allege the gospels of the Bible were corrupted, as if anyone had the power to do so in pre 600AD.

For early Islam[9] and Muhammad himself is seen to uphold the Scriptures[10] that existed then as divinely inspired, both the Torah, (Sura 2:87) and the Psalms, (4:163) and the Gospels, (Suras 3:3; 5:46) such as in stating (see here).

[Antoninus]

I thought there was evidence that Pontius Pilot wrote about the trial of Jesus of Nazareth. That there were letters and records from the Romans?

It's pretty much accepted by patristics scholars that the works ascribed to Pontius Pilate are apocryphal.

That said, there are tons and tons of extra-Biblical accounts of Jesus and early Christians.

Maybe start here:


I Am A Christian: Authentic Accounts of Christian Martyrdom and Persecution from the Ancient Sources

[Antoninus]

There is literally more evidence of Jesus than there is of Shakespeare.

Which is pretty amazing considering the lengths the Romans went to in order to destroy all Christian literature. Imagine if we could discover even a fraction of what was lost?

"The Oblivion of a Silent Age" ~ The effort of Diocletian and Galerius to wipe out Christian literature during the Great Persecution

[daniel1212]

See post https://freerepublic.com/focus/chat/4291597/posts?page=19#19

[conserv8]

I also believe in the solstice and equinox
But they are pretty much a local thing

When they figured out how to mark the diminishing and the lengthening of days, a couple days after after the short mark was enough to verify the days were getting longer and resulted in a celebration.

Has been independently going on all over the earth, for a VERY long time. Possibly since the 23 degree tilt

[linMcHlp]

William Dennes Mahan
Cumberland Presbyterian Minister
1824 - 1906

http://www.cumberland.org/hfcpc/minister/MahanWilliamDennes.htm

- - - - -

STRANGE NEW GOSPELS

by Edgar J. Goodspeed

https://www.tertullian.org/articles/goodspeed_strange_new_gospels.htm

Scroll down to:

“V. PILATE’S COURT, AND THE ARCHKO VOLUME”

“IN 1879, the Rev. W. D. Mahan, a Cumberland Presbyterian minister, of Boonville, Missouri, published a pamphlet of thirty-two pages, entitled ‘A Correct Transcript of Pilate’s Court.’”

- - - - -

Look for works by Isaac M. Wise

The Martyrdom of Jesus of Nazareth
A Historic-Critical Treatise of the Last Chapters of the Gospel

A Defense of Judaism
Versus
Proselytizing Christianity

- - - - -

William Dennes Mahan aka Dr. Mahan, had a vivid imagination. He studied the works of Isaac M. Wise, and thereby “knew” some history of the middle East.

IIRC, Mahan and Wise communicated by mail, and might have met in person, once or twice (I forget).

Anyway, Mahan “published a pamphlet of thirty-two pages, entitled ‘A Correct Transcript of Pilate’s Court.’” That was also included in a much-expanded form, published as The Archko Volume.

That can be downloaded at:

https://archive.org/download/archkovolume00mahaiala/archkovolume00mahaiala.pdf

- - - - -

Mahan’s work was believeable for many, and still is. But Goodspeed investigated, and discovered errors in Mahan’s works.

[linMcHlp]

At some point in the investigation of Mahan’s work, Lew Wallace, author of Ben Hur and a Union general in the Civil War, was the U.S. consul or ambassador to Turkey.

Wallace was asked to ask some questions at the Library of _____ (again, I forget) in Constantinople (sp?), because some documents of Pilate were supposed to be there?

Wallace asked, and the librarian said, No such papers . . . or words to that effect.

So, the provenance (usage?) of Mahan’s work, was not there.

The irony, in my view, is that Lew Wallace’s book, Ben Hur, became popular fiction.

And, if William Mahan had published his own work as fiction, Mahan would probably have been a financially successful author.

I remain interested, because Lew Wallace took the word of the fellow in charge at the Constantinople library . . . and I wonder if that was true.

[laplata]

Wallace wrote a great story.

[linMcHlp]

‘Tis a great story. I wonder if he developed notes for it, during the Civil War, as a mental sidetrack from the stress of the war.

[Antoninus]

It is fascinating stuff, and certainly worthy of consideration. I have no doubt that Mahan could have found "something" at a Greek library in Constantinople. But whether he had the scholarly chops to discern a fraudulent work from a legitimate one is unknown, at least by me.

Here is a link to a translation of the so-called "Letter of Pilate." It doesn't provide much new information and has many of the hallmarks of a later fraud.

This article includes some of the authentic ancient sources that tell us a little more about Pilate, namely Josephus and Philo.

There is a ton more, including the so-called "Acts of Pilate" and "The Report of Pilate the Procurator" and The Death of Pontius Pilate" among others. All of these works have been considered "historical fiction" of later dates by most Church scholars.

[daniel1212]

Philo never mentioned him in any of his writings.

I think you could use such lack of mention by contemporary writers to argue against the existence of some other historical figures. Regardless, to use the lack of any mention of Jesus in the rather extensive, but incomplete writings of Plato as an argument against the historicity of Jesus, then among other things, it must be presumed that Philo, despite not being a historian but a philosopher would mention Jesus, even though he also failed to even mention many philosophers:

Named references to philosophers in Philo’s work are rather rare, and often the cited names are not those that one would expect. For example, he never mentions Posidonius, one of the greatest names of Stoicism, who was the first to attempt a reconciliation of at least some Stoic and Platonic themes. There are reasons to think Philo read this Rhodian philosopher, but he is silent about Posidonius.

One could surmise that his clearly anti-Jewish position was one possible reason for Philo’s silence. However, Philo is also silent regarding thinkers of the New Academy, Arcesilas and Carneades. He was clearly acquainted with these Academics, since there are some rather clear allusions in his work to their brand of skepticism. It is therefore curious that he gives the first version of the Skeptical tropes without any allusion to Aenesidemus, who developed them a century before.

Leaving aside the contested De aeternitate, we notice that Philo fails to mention Aristotle even once. While Stoicism plays a leading though complex role in most Philonian treatises, we only find four allusions to Zeno, the founder of the doctrine. They are all in the Probus, a treatise with strong Stoic features.

There is only a single mention of Epicurus, in Post. 2. Plato is mentioned twice each in the De opificio and the De uita contemplativa, and once in the Probus. Only three mentions of Socrates are found, but surprisingly, the presocratic thinkers are quoted much more than one would have thought: fourteen references to Pythagoras (with some uncertainties, since some of them are to be found in fragments), six to Heraclitus, and one each to Anaxagoras and Democritus.

He is still more silent about the great rabbis he would have certainly met in Alexandria and perhaps in Jerusalem. In his philosophical references, it is clear that he prefers to evoke the presocratic thinkers and the classical period of philosophy than the Hellenistic one. - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philo/

[daniel1212]

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1) [...] Julius Africanus lived roughly from A.D. 160 to about A.D. 240 - i.e., he wrote this roughly two centuries AFTER the Crucifixion of Christ.

My quotes were snippets, and in full that sections says: Thallus (52AD)

Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Which Chronography states:

As to His works severally, and His cures effected upon body and soul, and the mysteries of His doctrine, and the resurrection from the dead, these have been most authoritatively set forth by His disciples and apostles before us. On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun?

Let that opinion pass however; let it carry the majority with it; and let this portent of the world be deemed an eclipse of the sun, like others a portent only to the eye. [30] Phlegon [2nd c.] records that, in the time of Tiberius Cæsar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth—manifestly that one of which we speak. But what has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? Surely no such event as this is recorded for a long period. But it was a darkness induced by God, because the Lord happened then to suffer. And calculation makes out that the period of 70 weeks, as noted in Daniel, is completed at this time.

Thus the issue would be the credibility of Thallus and Julius. Of course, no extant records from two centuries later than an event occurred, recording what was passed down but which lacks extant records, can be allowed to be plausible since such events would be reported and preserved in reports. See related to that: https://historyforatheists.com/2018/05/jesus-mythicism-3-no-contemporary-references-to-jesus/ and post 14 are regards Philo.

[linMcHlp]

Thanks for extra info.

After Apostle Paul was arrested, a descendant of King Herod the Great (the "King" who feared the birth of Jesus):

Julia Drusilla, married to Antonius Felix (procurator of Judea)

was an observer, when Governor Antonius Felix heard the charges against Apostle Paul:

Paul presented the gospel as part of his defense, but Felix delayed giving a verdict. Some days later, Felix with his wife, Drusilla, summoned Paul for another hearing.

Speaking before Felix and Drusilla, Paul "spoke about faith in Christ Jesus . . . righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come" (Acts 24:24–25).

- https://www.gotquestions.org/Drusilla-in-the-Bible.html

Her son, Agrippa III - aka Marcus Antonius Agrippa - died in the Mt. Vesuvius eruption (79 AD).