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To: fwdude

I too believe that the dead are in heaven. Although when Jesus said “Today, you will be with me in Paradise”, Jesus didn’t go to Paradise - he went to Hell.

I have thought about that before and never really investigated it. I wonder if the translation is more like “Because of your belief today...”

Also - the day when a person becomes a believer is the day they join the Kingdom of Heaven, so perhaps it means that?

My old man thought his parents were looking over him and he would have “conversations” with them (I’m not sure one would call it prayer.)

I believe that he and my mom are too focused on Jesus in Heaven to worry about the things on this earth.


40 posted on 10/24/2024 12:09:07 PM PDT by 21twelve (Ever Vigilant - Never Fearful)
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To: 21twelve

Jesus didn’t go to hell, which doesn’t exist yet. He went to a holding area called “paradise,” a holding area for all the departed, which was comprised of two compartments, one for the damned and one for the redeemed. That’s what is described in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The two could talk to each other.

Jesus released the redeemed out of that place when he descended. That’s where the thief was to be with Him.


43 posted on 10/24/2024 12:28:05 PM PDT by fwdude (The cost of freedom is often not being able to experience it, or knowing it was even obtained.)
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To: 21twelve
I too believe that the dead are in heaven. Although when Jesus said “Today, you will be with me in Paradise”, Jesus didn’t go to Paradise - he went to Hell.

Paradise was Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, awaiting the perfect atonement of Lord Jesus and then Him to release them to Heaven, later called Paradise:

For (as shown with a remarkable confluence of texts) while Christ finished providing the expiation for sin needed for the way into the holy of holies to be opened, which aforetime was not

[7]
[8]
(although God forgave sin in recognition of what Christ would provide, which the O.T. sacrificial system represented,
[9]
and which opening was the tearing of the heavy veil of the temple being supernaturally torn rent in two from the top to the bottom, and with earthquakes,
[10]
yet the promised pouring out of the Holy Spirit and gifts upon all believers awaited the Lord s glorification and resurrection.
[11]

Thus we read,

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:7-13)

“The “gift of Christ” is that pouring out of the Spirit which the disciples were told to wait for in Jerusalem, which about 120 realized, (Acts 1,2) and was preceded by the Lord descending into the “lower part do the earth,” releasing souls who were comforted in Abraham’s Bosom,

[12]
also called Paradise,
[13]
but could not yet enter the holy of holies which believers would have immediate access to (as shown above).

And by the Spirit the Lord also preached unto the disobedient spirits in prison (Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water: 1 Peter 3:19, 20) which was that of declaring that in rejecting Noah then they in essence rejected Christ.

And while He was descended, the Lord released all the OT believers (“led captivity captive) to Heaven, and thus it was only “after his resurrection” that OT believers “went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. “(Matthew 27:53)

And having released all in Paradise/Abraham’s Bosom and ascended up to Heaven, Paradise is now called the “third Heaven.”

[14]

And being resurrected and glorified, the Lord, as promised, poured out the “gift of Christ” - the Spirit and with gifts, upon all believers beginning at Pentecost. Thus the words of Peter:

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Acts 2:33)

And the same heart-purifying regenerating faith by the Spirit was realized by the Gentiles who believed:

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

Thus while the church can be called an assembly, the formal functional beginning of the NT church awaited the resurrection of Christ and the pouring out of the gifts thereof and offices.

For this brings us back to Ephesians 4:9-12) again, Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Ephesians 4:9-12)

Footnotes

[1]
http://But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. (Acts 19:39)
[2]
http://This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (Acts 7:38)
[3]
http://Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)
[4]
http://When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:30)
[5]
http://Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
[6]
http://Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Hebrews 10:19-20)
[7]
http://The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (Hebrews 9:8)
[8]
http://For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)
[9]
http://`For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)
[10]
http://Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (Matthew 27:50)
[11]
http://He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) (John 7:38-39)
[12]
http://And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (Luke 16:22)
[13]
http://And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43)
[14]
http://How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Corinthians 12:4)

63 posted on 10/24/2024 7:27:59 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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