Posted on 09/07/2024 5:16:23 AM PDT by Olympiad Fisherman
Christians are God's instrument when GOD converts them by opening their eyes to the Gospel of Grace, using believers as messengers to share His Gospel.
"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Simple as that.
You have either come to saving faith or not.
You either responded after hearing the Gospel from those sent to share it or not.
You will either go to heaven as a result of saving faith, or not.
Personally, I hope you do!
“ If you are going to define “convert” as forcing a person to come to saving faith, that is impossible.”
Here’s a real question
Why would I not define convert by its definition?
Convert
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
verb
/kənˈvərt/
1.
cause to change in form, character, or function.
“production processes that converted raw material into useful forms”
Similar:
change
turn
transform
metamorphose
transfigure
transmute
translate
transmogrify
permute
adapt
rework
recast
reshape
refashion
remodel
remold
rehash
2.
change one’s religious faith or other beliefs.
Explaining the Gospel to people as we've been trying to do with you.
In the book of Acts there are many accounts of Paul, Peter and the disciples witnessing to people and sharing the Gospel. Might be a good read for you this weekend.
Ambulance drivers are not doctors and we are not God.
Here’s a follow up question, “why be anal retentive about it?”
At the end of the day, God converts people from darkness to light.
This is a change in form, character, and function!
HE uses believers in Christ as partners to spread the very Word of the Gospel of Grace that leads to the conversion.
Beyond that, you are tilting at windmills.
I understand some like to do that as a hobby.
OK.
cause to change in form, character, or function.
When a person becomes a follower of Christ their character is indeed changed.
And the #2 definition is applicable as well.
So why the Clintonian argument?
Glady, plus addressing your assertion, "No where in Christianity is there a directive to convert people. No where."
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 3:2)
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15) [repentance means change, from unbelief to belief, and to believe the gospel means to believe in the prophesied Messiah Christ, the King of the kingdom, and thus submit to Him, a conversion unto the forgiveness of sins and salvation].
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15-16)
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46-47)
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (Mark 13:9-10)
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:3,6-7)
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent...Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (Acts 2:26,37-39)
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:42-43)
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. (Acts 9:17-20)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:11-12)
At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. (Acts 26:13-18)
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. (John 10:15-17)
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. (Acts 13:46-47)
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Acts 28:28)
And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:20-21)
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. (Acts 16:14-15)
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. (Acts 16:30-34)
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) (2 Corinthians 6:2)
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Ephesians 2:13-18)
We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: (1 Thessalonians 1:2-6)
I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds: Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me: (Philemon 10-11)
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: (Hebrews 6:6-11)
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:12-14)
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38)
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
This is only a partial list, but if you cannot see commands and exhortations to evangelize/convert, and commendations for so being and doings, then beware lest to you this applies:
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:14-15)
“Here’s a follow up question, “why be anal retentive about it?“
That’s a nice way to discuss. You convert people with that tactic?
:-)
“We convert people in a way similar to how an ambulance drive might save someone’s life“
No. As a medic who has participated in life saving ambulance calls I can tel you that CPR and cardioversion is violently proactive in achieving change in medical status
It is a very inaccurate attempt at an analogy.
Telling the truth is always a beautiful thing. All progress starts with telling the truth.
I've never converted anyone myself. God has. Sometimes He uses me.
He always uses truth to do it.
You should turn to Him be converted.
Again, no where in Christianity does it say to convert people to Christianity the way that you would physically save a life. In the first place, there is always permission given or taken away by the patient for tge medical people to perform life saving measures
Yes, understood. Catholicism and Lutheranism has much to answer for, but mostly because they went along with it while the Nazis hated them privately.
“ Explaining the Gospel to people as we’ve been trying to do with you.”
You’re not trying to explain the Gospel. You’re trying to get me to see something that is not there
Just present it. You don’t have to explain it
I follow many credentialed theologians. I don’t need to pretend FR posters know more than they do
Your arguments are now bordering on the absurd.
In the first place, there is always permission given or taken away by the patient for tge medical people to perform life saving measures
Not when the person is knocked out...the medics hopefully do everything they can to save the person.
Similar to people who are lost and cannot see the Truth, Christians do everything possible to witness to the person.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAnal retentiveness is a personality trait that is characterised by excessive concern with trivial details.[1]
The concept originated in Freudian psychoanalytic theory, where one aspect of the anal stage of psychosexual development is pleasure in the retention of faeces.
Fixation in this stage can potentially result in a personality marked by frugality, obstinacy and orderliness.[2]
Despite its psychoanalytic roots and the literal meaning of the words, in common usage the term generally refers merely to certain kinds of obsessive behaviour.
Yes, Hitler’s Table Talks are riddled with Anti-Christian sentiments, which is why the Left now vigorously opposes its authenticity.
Then you are exampling indolence and sophistry, or gross blindness. The NT teaches conversion, which is not by force, and there is no justification to impose your meaning on it as meaning that. Otherwise souls could not harden hearts at hearing of the gospel.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convert:
transitive verb
1 a : to bring over from one belief, view, or party to another They tried to convert us to their way of thinking.
b : to bring about a religious conversion in The missionaries converted the native people to Christianity.
Act 3:19 RepentG3340 ye therefore,G3767 andG2532 be converted,G1994 that yourG5216 sinsG266 may be blotted out,G1813 (Act 3:19)
transitively
to turn to
to the worship of the true God
to cause to return, to bring back
to the love and obedience of God
to the love for the children
to love wisdom and righteousness
intransitively
to turn to one's self
to turn one's self about, turn back
to return, turn back, come back
The KJV translates Strong's G1994 in the following manner: turn (16x), be converted (6x), return (6x), turn about (4x), turn again (3x), miscellaneous (4x).
I must go now for hours to do ministering, due to conversion, but not by force (though God made me willing). Thank God.
That you keep trying to make that argument shows you're either very slow on the uptake or are just here to argue for arguing sakes.
Yes, thank you! I have read through parts of this book.
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