Posted on 08/17/2024 1:07:19 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
The Ottomans did a few things right (a lot of Sephardic Jews took refuge in the Ottoman Empire) but also did a lot wrong--murdering and enslaving people. The Armenian genocide is the best known but not their only genocide. I don't think many Greeks, Bulgarians or Serbs have fond memories of the centuries of Ottoman rule.
Hannibal has been criticized for not marching on Rome after his victory at Cannae, but it’s doubtful that he could have captured the city, given the length of the city walls and the size of the forces at his command. As long as the Romans had armies in the field, Hannibal could not win the war.
The Vikings and the Portuguese arguably changed the world more than the Han & more than the Ottoman combined.
The Arab empire under the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs had more territory under its control than several of the empires listed.
The Spanish Empire had a lasting impact—consider how many countries in the Western Hemisphere have Spanish as the official language (and in most cases the most widely used language).
There is no doubt the Roman Empire (and Republic before it) was the most consequential in human history.
The Ottoman Empire lasted an “incredible” six centuries ... and does the author mention how long western Rome lasted, no less eastern Rome?
Roman Republic 5 centuries + western Roman Empire another 5 centuries = 10 centuries, talk about incredible!
Eastern Roman Empire (or Byzantium) not including its predecessor - 9 centuries, no, no, can’t say incredible, only the Ottoman Empire is incredible
The Ottoman Empire was tolerant, very tolerant
Proof: a small number of Jews, Christians and others weren’t forced to convert or induced to convert by being discriminated against.
Egypt used to be majority Christian (and spoke Egyptian). Under the Ottomans, Egypt became a majority Muslim country (and Arabic replaced their national language).
The Middle East was majority Christian (and spoke Aramaic). Under the Ottomans, the Middle East became majority Muslim (and Arabic replaced Aramaic).
If we were fair, we’d recognize that went on under the Ottomans as cultural genocide. And, we’d recognize that the Ottomans, like the Caliphate before them, made one after another attempt to conquer Christian Europe.
We should strive for consistency in re-writing history, and we should suspect that characterizing some empires as good and others as bad means that there’s an agenda. Generally, those who see things as black or white reveal that they are unqualified to judge the shades of gray that we find in the real world.
The best computer game I ever played was Sid Meir’s Civilization. It was 1000 times better than Risk. it was a very clever learning tool on how civilizations grow powerful. The computer opponents were good too. I loved mismatched wars with civilizations where I had bombers and they had bronze spears. I was addicted to it. I would play 72 hours straight. Finally in a semi sober state I would nuke my last enemy knowing that the game would end declaring that all life on earth was dead from global winter. I loved that game.
China invented a lot of stuff, and the Han dynasty was one of their high points. I have to give them more credit than the Vikings.
The Tianming still lives in the Chinese psyche.
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On the topic of a different empire/age. It’s interesting how the mass migration and invasion of the sea people pretty much decimated the Bronze Age and all of its glory,
The Persian Empire was a remarkably large and successful realm, at its peak sprawling across Central Asia, into NW India (including most of modern Pakistan), much of the Middle East, western coast of Arabia, Egypt, the Sinai, Anatolia, and northern Greece. The Persian pontoon bridge over the Danube was an impressive achievement by the imperial military engineers, and was done in order to attempt the conquest of the Scythian area north of the Black Sea. Alexander the Great's conquest of the Persian Empire went well, but his death at 32 led to a three-way split among his generals. The Seleucid Empire comprised much of the old Persian territory, but over time got carved into multiple ethnic kingdoms. Its tettering final remnant west of the Euphrates fell to the Romans about 64 BC.
The Han lasted roughly 400 years and while it was in contact with the Roman Empire, both of them experienced a 3rd c AD crisis, from which only Rome emerged reconstituted. Contact with the Hellenized Alexandrian successor states in Central Asia took place.
The Mongol Empire wasn't actually a single authority in control of much of the territory often bragged about by its advocates. It didn't establish durable control, and its duration was a bit more than 150 years, during which time its primary faction was subsumed into the deeper cultures of China, well established by the The Han Dynasty.
The Roman Empire began in Italy circa 500 BC with Rome's annexation of Ostia, and continued until Constantinople in 1453, a mere 39 years before Columbus set sail. After Roman expansion reached Anatolia, intermittent conflict with the Parthian Empire (a partly Hellenized successor to the Persian Empire) went on until the muzzie conquest of what's now Iran in the mid-7th c AD.
Charlemagne founded the mighty French kingdom of the Middle Ages, which led to France having the largest population in Europe by the end of the 18th century, and one of the largest in the world. The French Revolution and its purges and attacks by neighboring powers, followed by the Napoleonic Wars, whittled this down some, but France was the major rival of the Habsburgs in Europe before and after the French monarchy. France didn't get wrung out until both World Wars and, like Britain, the bloodletting from those conflicts led to the loss of much of their former overseas empire.
The Seljuk dynasty of Turks swung round into Anatolia and bit off pieces of Byzantine Anatolia, finally falling in its turn early in the 14th c. The Ottoman Empire emerged in Anatolia 1299 AD, reached its peak in the mid 16th c, and did pretty well through the mid 18th. Turkish groups have been dominant or shared dominance in Central Asia for a long while. Influence beyond their geographic limits have not been spectacular IMHO.
Habsburg Spain controlled more of the world's surface than any of its peers or probably any other political entity in history. The Habsburgs defeated the Ottoman Empire at Lepanto (sez here the largest Mediterranean naval engagement since Actium). The mines at Potosi were already being exploited prior to Spanish conquest, but the arrival of the Spanish juiced production; the estimates range from 25-35 percent of all the silver ever mined on Earth having come from Potosi. Yet that vast fortune came and went.
I like it. Good post.
Thanks! I stopped for snacks twice and beverages three times, plus took a TV break. I’m old and tired. :^D
Again, well done. It’s important to take your time to be accurate.
I spotted one typo, probably happened when I came back from a break. :^)
China invented a lot of stuff
—
Eatable/food stuff
Apples, apricot, oranges, peaches, the lemon, grapefruit - a modified descendant of the Chinese pomelo, the Chinese persimmon, shoots of the young bamboo, water chestnut, the sweet lichee nut, noodles, ice cream-like deserts, pasta, the tea rose, the soy bean, whiskey
Military
fireworks, the compass, the crossbow, kites, the parachute, cigar shaped hot-air balloon, “man-flying kites”, antiaircraft fire (shooting down kites with arrows), manned rockets - (Wan Hu reportedly attached 47 gunpowder rockets to his chair, lit the fuses and took off, and was never seen again), burning mirrors and curved mirrors, poison gas, the stink bomb, flame thrower
Flowers
the chrysanthemum, the tea rose, the camellia, the azalea, the China aster, the tall woody-stemmed tree peony, the ginkgo or maidenhair tree
Medical
eye drops, chaulmoogra oil - the only known means for treating leprosy, ephedrine - used for treating colds
Personal
umbrellas, the folding umbrella, belts, buckled belts, plaques, buckles, trousers, sunglasses, mirrors, toilet paper, chairs, the sedan chair or palanquin, wallpaper, toilet paper
Multimedia
playing cards, paper, dominoes, camera obscura, yo-yos, the magic lantern (or zoetrope), goldfish, chess, the spoon, dice, shadow play
Arts
wood block printing, phosphorescent paint, the spinning wheel, sliding calipers, porcelain, lost-wax casting and metalworking techniques used in making wire and chains
Nautical
fishing reels, the rudder, dry docks, watertight bulkheads
Concepts
the decimal point, the concept of zero, the Mohist classic of Chinese physics elaborated a theory of optics, the first to notice that all snowflakes had six sides, musical Harmonia [1578].
Transportation
wheeled transport, chariots, cavalry tactics
Misc
lacquer, the wheelbarrow, the seismograph, weather cocks and vanes, wind direction devices, fingerprinting, tung oil - for varnishes, woven silk, peacock-feather fans and screen fans, compasses, soccer (Cuju)
http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat2/4sub7/item30.html
Chinese inventions were used mainly for the amusement of the emperor rather than moving an economic society forward.
At Cannae, Hannibal destroyed Rome’s last army. Taking Rome would have certainly been a long siege, up to ten years. Most of the people in Italy then were Greeks in the South and East and Celts in the North, and they didn’t like Rome at all.
It’s a great debate.
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