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To: SeekAndFind
This is not how the Founders thought of it. They were natural born citizens of Virginia etc. and hence natural born citizens of the United States.

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President"

No one thought that Washington was ineligible under the first part of this clause. The second part was arguably added for Alexander Hamilton, not for the seven first presidents.

https://joyinger.expressions.syr.edu/citizenship/origins-and-interpretation-of-the-presidential-eligibility-clause-in-the-u-s-constitution/

22 posted on 06/22/2024 8:51:45 AM PDT by edwinland
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To: edwinland
Looking at your linked essay I ran across this.

"The term “natural born” citizen has a long history in British common law."

Absolutely wrong. "Citizen" is not a British term for someone born with allegiance to a nation. The British term is "Subject", and you will find "natural born subject" all throughout British common law, but you will not find "Citizen" in it at all.

Our usage of "Citizen" comes from Switzerland, which at the time was the only nation in the world that used the word "Citizen" to mean a member of a nation.

The word "citizen" was little used in the English of the time, and when it was, it meant "City Dweller", not member of a nation.

Subject is the only word the British ever used, and guess what? "Subjects" were required to have perpetual allegiance to the crown, and could not become "citizens", or even "subjects" of any other nation.

It was absolutely forbidden, according to both British Common Law and Statute law.

"Citizen" does not mean "Subject". "Citizens" are from Republics, and "Subjects" are from Monarchies.

The founders tossed out the British common law model when they adopted the Swiss "Citizen" model.

64 posted on 06/22/2024 10:15:44 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: edwinland
The second part was arguably added for Alexander Hamilton

Perhaps, but not necessarily. An interesting footnote on who is or is not a citizen in the early days of the country is the curious case of Thomas Paine.

Paine was born in England in 1737, and emigrated to the United State (Pennsylvania) in November 1774 with the help of Benjamin Franklin. As a pamphleteer, Paine wrote Common Sense in 1776 to inspire the colonists to support independency, and between 1776 and 1783 he wrote a series of pamphlets called The American Crisis to keep Americans supportive of the Revolutionary War.

Did this make Paine a citizen of the United States because he had emigrated here prior to the Declaration of Independence and was present throughout the entire war for independence? In 1781, the state of New York recognized Paine's services to the nation by granting him an estate in New Rochelle, NY (there is a museum in his honor there today).

As a Founding Father, Paine held several prominent positions in the newly formed United States:

  1. During the Revolutionary War, Paine served as an aide-de-camp to General, Nathanael Greene.
  2. In 1777, Paine became secretary of the Congressional Committee on Foreign Affairs. Paine was expelled from the Committee in 1779.
  3. In 1781, Paine accompanied John Laurens on his mission to France.
During his time as secretary of the Congressional Committee on Foreign Affairs, Paine accused Delegate Robert Morris of Pennsylvania of profiteering from the Revolutionary War. Morris was cleared by the Continental Congress and Paine eventually resigned as secretary of the committee. Morris himself was born in England in 1734 and emigrated to the United States in his teens. Morriss would eventually become a Senator from Pennsylvania in the first United States Congress in 1789.

A close friend of Morris in the Continental Congress was Gouverneur Morris (no relation) of New York. This would become a factor later in Paine's life

Back to 1781 and the Laurens mission to France, he and Paine left Boston for France on February 11, 1781 and arrived on March 9 where they met up with Benjamin Franklin. The three of them convinced King Louis XVI to provide additional funding and military support for the Revolutionary War. Laurens and Paine returned to the United States on June 6.

In 1783, Paine bought his only piece of real estate, a house in New Jersey that he lived in on and off for the rest of his life. In 1785, Paine was elected a member of the American Philosophical Society.

After the conclusion of the Revolutionary War, Paine began dabbling with scientific experimentation leading him to design a new style of iron bridge. A version of his design was built across the Schuylkill River in Philadelphia. In 1787, Paine returned to Paris with a wooden model of his new bridge design, and then to London where he had a 110 foot iron model forged and constructed for public display in May 1790. This personal project of Paine's took him out of the country during the drafting and ratification of the United States Constitution.

Does this mean that Paine was not a citizen of the United States because he was out of the country during the ratification of the Constitution?

In December 1793, Paine was again in France supporting the French Revolution and was arrested by Robespierre as a foreign conspirator during the Reign of Terror. The Minister of the United States to the French Government just happened to be none other than Gouverneur Morris, who declined to rescue Paine from prison stating that he was not an American citizen. Paine was eventually released after James Monroe replaced Gouverneur Morris as the American Minister.

Fast-forward to May 1807, Thomas Paine was denied the right to vote in the New Rochelle NY election by local election official Elisha Ward, who cited the refusal of Gouverneur Morris to "reclaim" Paine when he was imprisoned in France. Paine wrote a letter to former New York Governor and now Vice President George Clinton asking for relief, accusing Ward and three other people of being Tories who supported the British during the Revolutionary War who eventually became election inspectors in New Rochelle.

Ultimately, Paine got no relief, likely because he offended so many people during the post-Revolution and French Revolution periods.

It is interesting to see how "fragile" American citizenship was in the early days. When you compare Thomas Paine to Robert Morris, they were born within a few years of each other, both emigrated to the United States (Morris as a teen, Paine as an adult), and both served in the Continental Congress, Morris served in the United States Senate. Yet it was Paine's citizenship that was questioned and ultimately rescinded, if not legally then politically by ostracization from powerful people who turned against Paine. It is also an early example of the "long knives" of politicians who remember slights from long ago and exact their revenge much later when the opportunity arises, as with Paine and the two Morrisses.

Here is the full text of the letter that Thomas Paine wrote to George Clinton. It mentions the subject matter in the original post.


To George Clinton May 4, 1807

NEW YORK,

RESPECTED FRIEND:

Elisha Ward and three or four other Tories who lived within the British lines in the Revolutionary war, got in to be inspectors of the election last year at New Rochelle. Ward was supervisor. These men refused my vote at the election, saying to me: "You are not an American; our minister at Paris, Gouverneur Morris, would not reclaim you when you were imprisoned in the Luxembourg prison at Paris, and General Washington refused to do it." Upon my telling him that the two cases he stated were falsehoods, and that if he did me injustice I would prosecute him, he got up, and calling for a constable, said to me, "I will commit you to prison." He chose, however, to sit down and go no farther with it.

I have written to Mr. Madison for an attested copy of Mr. Monroe's letter to the then Secretary of State Randolph, in which Mr. Monroe gives the government an account of his reclaiming me and my liberation in consequence of it; and also for an attested copy of Mr. Randolph's answer, in which he says: "The President approves what you have done in the case of Mr. Paine." The matter I believe is, that, as I had not been guillotined, Washington thought best to say what he did. As to Gouverneur Morris, the case is that he did reclaim me; but his reclamation did me no good, and the probability is, he did not intend it should. Joel Barlow and other Americans in Paris had been in a body to reclaim me, but their application, being unofficial, was not regarded. I then applied to Morris. I shall subpoena Morris, and if I get attested copies from the Secretary of State's office it will prove the lie on the inspectors.

As it is a new generation that has risen up since the declaration of independence, they know nothing of what the political state of the country was at the time the pamphlet Common Sense appeared; and besides this there are but few of the old standers left, and none that I know of in this city.

It may be proper at the trial to bring the mind of the court and the jury back to the times I am speaking of, and if you see no objection in your way, I wish you would write a letter to some person, stating, from your own knowledge, what the condition of those times were, and the effect which the work Common Sense, and the several members of the Crisis had upon the country. It would, I think, be best that the letter should begin directly on the subject in this manner: Being informed that Thomas Paine has been denied his rights of citizenship by certain persons acting as inspectors at an election at New Rochelle, etc.

I have put the prosecution into the hands of Mr. Riker, district attorney, who can make use of the letter in his address to the Court and Jury. Your handwriting can be sworn to by persons here, if necessary. Had you been on the spot I should have subpoenaed you, unless it had been too inconvenient to you to have attended.

Yours in friendship,

THOMAS PAINE.


One day earlier, Paine sent a letter to James Madison seeking documents supporting his description of events relayed in the original post.


To James Madison May 3, 1807

NEW YORK,

SIR:

When Mr. Monroe came Minister from the United States to the French Government I was still imprisoned in the Luxembourg by the Robespierre party in the convention. The fall of Robespierre took place a few days before Mr. Monroe reached Paris, and as soon as Mr. Monroe could make his own standing good, which required time on account of the ill conduct of his predecessor Gouverneur Morris, he reclaimed me as an American citizen, for the case was, I was excluded from the convention as a foreigner and imprisoned as a foreigner. I was liberated immediately on Mr. Monroe's reclamation.

Mr. Monroe wrote an official account of this to the secretary of state, Mr. Randolph, and also an account of what he had done for Madame LaFayette who was also imprisoned, distinguishing the one to be done officially, and the other, that for Madame LaFayette, to be done in friendship. In Mr. Randolph's official answer to Mr. Monroe's letter, he says as nearly as I recollect the words, "The President [Mr. Washington] approves what you have done in the case of Mr. Paine." My own opinion on this matter is, that as I had not been guillotined Washington thought it best to say what he did.

I will be obliged to you for an attested copy of Mr. Monroe's letter and also of Mr. Randolph's official answer so far as any parts of them relate to me. The reason for this application is as follows,

Last year 1806 I lived on my farm at New Rochelle, State of New York; a man of the name Elisha Ward was supervisor that year. The father of this man and all his brothers joined the British in the war; but this one being the youngest and not at that time old enough to carry a musket remained at home with his mother.

When the election (at which the supervisor for the time being presides) came on at New Rochelle last year for Members of Congress and Members of state assemblies, I tendered my tickets separately distinguishing which was which, as is the custom; each of which Ward refused, saying to me "You are not an American Citizen." Upon my beginning to remonstrate with him, he replied, "Our minister at Paris, Gouverneur Morris, would not reclaim you as an American Citizen when you were imprisoned in The Luxembourg at Paris, and General Washington refused to do it."

I accordingly commenced a prosecution against him last fall and the court will set the 20th of this May. Mr. Monroe's letter to the secretary and the secretary's official answer are both published by Mr. Monroe in his views of the conduct of the executive printed by Benjn Franklin Bache. But as a printed book is not sufficient evidence an attested copy from your office will be necessary.

As to Gouverneur Morris, the fact is, that he did reclaim me on my application to him as Minister, but his reclamation of me did me no good, for he could hardly keep himself out of prison, neither did he do it out of any good will to me.

THOMAS PAINE.


-PJ

85 posted on 06/22/2024 2:36:32 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too ( * LAAP = Left-wing Activist Agitprop Press (formerly known as the MSM))
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