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To: newbolt

I can’t vouch for the validity of the claims, I’ve seen reports this morning talking about cluster bombs being given to Ukraine.

Two Points were made.

The reason we are giving them cluster munitions now is the USA has given Ukraine just about all of our conventional artillery shells in stock and cluster bombs are the only thing left to give Ukraine until production is ramped up to make more.

Second point - part of the justification of giving the bombs to Ukraine is Russia has been using them against Ukraine, the reports I’ve seen is that if Russia has been using cluster bombs, the entire world would have known about it because the USA would be alleging Russia is involved in War Crimes by using the weapons.

Could this be true, perhaps it could also be totally false.


46 posted on 07/10/2023 9:56:26 AM PDT by srmanuel ( M)
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To: srmanuel

“””The reason we are giving them cluster munitions now is the USA has given Ukraine just about all of our conventional artillery shells in stock “””

There is a huge difference between saying we are almost out of stock, versus having sent almost all of the ones we were willing to part with.

The second point—Russia has been using cluster bombs extensively since they first launched the invasion, even Ukraine has been using them.

Russia has been committing war crimes with them by using them indiscriminately against civilians.


50 posted on 07/10/2023 10:15:35 AM PDT by ansel12 (NATO warrior under Reagan, and RA under Nixon, bemoaning the pro-Russians from Vietnam to Ukraine.)
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To: srmanuel

Production of munitions is constant, and is happening in several countries. This is a dynamic situation, not static.

The production rate is still lower than what Ukraine wants to use.

What’s getting shipped now are 155mm DPICM shells (look it up). These could be good substitutes for 155mm HE for a lot of uses, especially counterbattery and shooting at tanks, as they are armor piercing bomblets. Not so good against bunkers or buildings. The US has to dispose of them anyway.

What could also get shipped are the M26 cluster munition (look it up) for the MLRS/HIMARS system. Those things are devastating. At one time these were the principal ammo for US rocket artillery. I understand the US has vast numbers in stock.

Granted, Ukraine has few HIMARs or MLRS launchers, as they were supplied to shoot precision GMLRS GPS ammo, not as general purpose artillery. But originally the MLRS was actually the US answer to the Russian rocket artillery as an area effect weapon - the Grad, Uragan, etc. That’s why the US has about 1000 redundant MLRS systems it could ship. Every US Division had at least a battalion of MLRS.


62 posted on 07/10/2023 10:50:15 AM PDT by buwaya (Strategic imperatives )
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