Flubros and Flubras! Day 200 (a place for Flubros and Flubras)

www.freerepublic.com ^ | 11 October 2020 | Impimp

[2aProtectsTheRest]

I don’t support mask mandates, but zero people have died as a result of mask mandates. I don’t support closing schools, but zero people have died because schools are closed.

You’re claiming a bunch of stuff that has zero impact.

And no, the chart does NOT show that excess deaths are back to normal. Because you failed to read it. Not surprising, since it doesn’t fit your narrative. Would you like me to point out what you failed to read? Or would you like to look back at it one more time? (Hint: It’s in the Figure Notes below the graph)

[fireman15]

I repeat... the lockdowns have caused people who are surfering from the real killers to not get treatment... They have also caused people to be isolated from others which has resulted in depression, increased substance abuse and even suicides. They have also closed down restaurants and buffets which catered to older folks which has caused many who are not very able to prepare nutricious meals for themselves to switch to fast food and junk food. Health clubs which people have depended on to help maintain their fitness levesl have been closed down.

I am very sorry that you are too dense to understand the implications of what has been taking place and the hardships that it has caused. It is obviously a complete waste of time and energy to try and explain it to you. You can't even comprehend the meaning of the chart that you linkes to. I am a little embarrassed for you.

[2aProtectsTheRest]

You can repeat whatever nonsense you like, but there’s no data to support it. Cancer deaths have seen zero excess deaths this year, so clearly they’re going for treatment. Deaths from most other causes are right on track for normal this year. The couple categories where there was a spike around the end of March were all comorbidities that correlate with a very high risk of death with COVID-19 and saw a quick return to normal once COVID-19 tests became available.

Had those been due to lockdowns and lack of treatment, we’d see excess deaths steadily grow in those categories over time as that lack of treatment manifested in a slow decline in health toward death. What we ACTUALLY saw was a quick spike when COVID-19 hit followed by a drop back into the normal range once COVID-19 could be properly diagnosed.

Your fairy tales have no data supporting them. They have no basis in reality.

[fireman15]

OK, Lets give it one more try... despite you obviously not reading my previous posts.

This will be the first “pandemic” in history where government hysteria across the globe caused more death and destruction than the actual virus itself. Countless kids and people will starve in the coming months because of the disruption. And people who were sick this year from the real killers, cancer, heart disease, stoke and other fatal conditions were not able to or scared to get treatment. The lockdown also caused people to not get good exercise and nutrition. The lockdown caused people to lose their jobs and businesses, caused people to be isolated from others; these and other lockdown related issues caused a huge spike in substance abuse and mental health problems.

There were less than 1/4 as many people in the world in in 1918-1919. 50 million died, far more than now. That Flu variant killed young healthy people with strong immune systems and no comorbidities. The vast majority of deaths with this virus are people were counted who died WITH the virus not FROM the virus.

My wife’s brother died from a brain tumor that he was not able to get elective surgery for that might have extended his life and was put on hospice care instead. When he died no tests were available to people who were not health care workers, politicians, or clebrities, so he was counted as a “presumptive covid-19 death” by CDC guidelines. This year there are numerous examples of people being counted who died from being shot in the head, getting run over by motor vehicles, and most frequently like my brother-in-law serious medical conditions like cancer, heart attacks, stokes or other serious medical conditions. In fact the vast majority of people counted died from other causes. In Italy, an early poster child for this pandemic... 96% of fatalities from this died with serious “comorbidities”. Here 94% of fatalities had serious “comorbidities”.

Most people do not know anyone who actually died from Covid this year. In 1918-1919 almost everyone knew someone who died from the flu. My wife and I own a 1942 Cadillac that was once owned by Winifred Filson who with her husband founded the C.C. Filson Company in 1897 which still manufactures a popular line of clothing. https://www.filson.com/

Winifred’s husband Clinton Filson who was a robust outdoors-man died suddenly from the flu in 1919 when he went on a hunting trip to Oregon. Like most who got the 1918-1919 Flu he died within a couple days of coming down with it and had NO other health problems. When you were counted as a Flu death from that Pandemic you really died from the Flu. 95% of the people counted these days died WITH Covid not FROM Covid.

[fireman15]

Cancer deaths have seen zero excess deaths this year, so clearly they’re going for treatment. Deaths from most other causes are right on track for normal this year.

The reason deaths from cancer and “other causes” are “on track” is because those deaths are being counted as Covid deaths... How dense are you?

[2aProtectsTheRest]

You can choose to continue living in your fantasy, but you’re going to have a difficult time explaining why every doctor on Earth who’s on the front lines is losing patients to COVID-19. That includes doctors here on FR. Or why Sweden - which never locked down - also experienced a large number of COVID-19 deaths.

Your fantasies are constantly disrupted by the nagging emergence of reality.

[Cronos]

In the UK

In Sweden

Deaths did increase in Sweden

In addition Sweden had a harder lockdown in reality than the USA -- that's because the Swedes didn't need to put legal implications in place as people naturally self-isolated

It would be more accurate to compare the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian death rates - as Sweden (10 million), Denmark+Norway (10 million) have similar cultures and population densities (I'm combining Denmary and NOrway for that to compare)

Denmark+norway has had 674+277 = 951 deaths

Sweden has had 5,899 deaths --> Sweden has had 6 times the deaths and death rate of Denmark+Norway and has been equally hit economically - Denmark and Norway implemented strict lockdowns and Sweden culturally had a lockdown, but the death rates are significantly different

[fireman15]

Denmark and Norway implemented strict lockdowns and Sweden culturally had a lockdown, but the death rates are significantly different.

And why pretell do you posit that is? Lets explore that a bit. We have a wide variety of death rates between US States, many of which have larger populations than Norway, Denmark, and even Sweden. There are reasons that partially explain the variations in many cases that have little to do with the policies put in place by the states.

Blue states with more strict lockdown policies tend to have higher death rates but not always. Were the lockdowns the cause of the higher death rates or were the lockdowns a reaction to the higher death rates? What were the differences between the way that the lockdowns were implemented? This all varies as do factors such as population density, the average age of the population where outbreaks occurred, early contact with people from China etc... This is not to mention that even within the United States the way that the numbers are tabulated varies greatly from state to state and even county to county. I would suggest that the variables are so great that meaningful conclusions based strictly on death rates and infection rates on a state to state basis are likely to be misleading in many if not most examples.

Why does New Jersey have a death rate that is 182 per 100,000 WITH Covid when Washington State where we had the first recorded cases and deaths in the country have a death rate of only 29 per 100,000 WITH Covid? If you break those numbers down further... in Washington we have 7 counties which had 95% of the deaths, 7 counties with a few deaths, and 25 counties with essentually no deaths. Basically the same restrictions have been imposed on all counties.

King County Washington has a death rate of 141 per 100,000 WITH Covid which is comparable to New Jersey. What is different about King County as compared to the counties with a low or nonexistent death rate. 1st we have 500,000 recent arrivals from China living amongst us, many of whom went back home to China for Chinese New Years. This is why we had the first recorded cases and deaths starting in January. After that the biggest difference between King County and the rest of the state is population density, huge numbers of people living in apartments, and the availability of mass transit. Wearing masks, “social distancing”, and closing down places where people congregate does little compared to living in a rural area, spending a higher percentage of your time outdoors, and having less contact with large groups of people.

The restrictions are ineffective and very detrimental especially when imposed on people who have very little chance of coming into contact with the virus. They may have a tiny benefit to those living in highly urbanized areas, but the statistics don't really show that do they? The restrictions have had a very detrimental effect with little to no benefit to those living outside of heavily urbanized areas. If you looked at the numbers from Sweden, Norway, and Denmark broken down county by county my guess is that they would break down in a similar ways. The big picture is too out of focus to reach meaningful conclusions.

And we have not even got into the huge wild card... People who die WITH Covid as opposed to people who die FROM Covid. If we explore that branch of the "pandemic" the entire house of cards falls in, regardless of the overall death rate. My neighbor who is hopelessly invested in the MSM narrative told me that earlier in the year her husband and her both got extremely sick. She said that Covid tests were not available. We were already in the middle of a bad flu season here when the news started picking up on Covid. She told me that they tested positive for a flu strain, so that is what was causing their illness and that they were so thankful that they did not have Covid. I replied that just because they had the flu did not mean that they did not have Covid also at the same time and that it would have been impossible to say which virus was causing the majority of their symptoms. She was completely speechless after that. Everyone in this state who died with any symptoms that resembled Covid was counted as a "Presumptive Covid Death" before tests were widely available... this was by CDC guidelines. My brother-in-law died from a brain tumor that he was unable to get treatment for because of the ban on elective surgeries... He was counted as a "presumptive covid death". After tests became widely available anyone whose body tested positive for Covis was counted as a Covid Death and this included gunshot, cancer and heart attack victims not to mention people ill with other viruses just as deadly. The numbers are screwed up by this type of malfeasance to the point where it is difficult to come to meaningful conclusions.

[Cronos]

The differences between the states in terms of lockdowns or not is not as controlled an “experiment” as between Sweden and Norway-Denmark. The latter are far more alike in culture, population, population density and area. And Sweden has 6 times the number of deaths per million than Norway-Denmark

[fireman15]

The latter are far more alike in culture, population, population density and area.

Just like where I live in Western Washington... there are huge differences in infection rates across the state, and actually even within King County the county which had the most cases and deaths. There has not been a “controlled experiment in the Scandinavian region. Most of what has been noted in the MSM are observations based on confirmation bias which disregards all information which contradicts preconceived notions.

[Cronos]

In the case of the USA it is far more difficult - as state borders are opened and the lockdown laws are difficult to enforce legally. For Sweden, Norway and Denmark, that is different. Which is why Sweden’s failure to keep deaths down, while at the same time having its economy tank is a good PARTIAL observation.

we can only be 100% certain about the merits or demerits of their strategy in 2022 after this virus has died down.

[fireman15]

Which is why Sweden’s failure to keep deaths down, while at the same time having its economy tank is a good PARTIAL observation.

This statement indicates to me that you are heavily invested in the MSM/leftist politically motivated critical point of view on the way Sweden handled this situation. The International Business Times made these key points in an article from 3 weeks ago,

“Sweden's chief epidemiologist says the country looks at coronavirus as a long-term problem, not something that can be wiped out”

“Caseloads are rising eleswhere in Europe, but not in Sweden”

“The Swedish economy took less of a hit than other European countries and the U.S.”

https://www.ibtimes.com/why-sweden-doing-better-coronavirus-pandemic-other-countries-sustainability-vs-3049925

These points all contradict your point of view. The “new cases” numbers currently being reported to keep the public alarmed are complete hogwash, because they are an artifact of a massive increase in testing. The amount of viral DNA detected after massive “amplification” is so small that it indicates nothing more than an exposure at some point not that the person is actually going to become sick or are contagious. If tests for the flu were conducted this same way, 90% of the population would test positive.

If you scroll down to the latest “Daily Death Chart” for Sweden at “World-o-meter” you will see that deaths from Coronavirus there dropped off to nothing by mid summer and have had no increase since that time. To me that indicates the wisdom of the decisions made there.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/