Posted on 08/05/2020 2:01:03 PM PDT by rarestia
I’m renovating my patio and wanted to take the ceiling fan off of a switched circuit and run a dedicated feed for power since the fan is always on anyway. I found some drops in the wall near my entertainment center that seemed like a sure thing, so I killed the breaker, cut the line and started running everything to splice in the new fan circuit. While I was stripping wires, my arm touched a ground and I got nice jolt. Yes, my arm touched a ground and got jolted. Grounds are supposed to be dead, right?
Well, despite a few years as an electricians apprentice 20+ years ago, I wasn’t comfortable using this line, so I capped everything and called an electrician to diagnose what I was looking at. Turns out the former owner ran a circuit to a timer for the security flood lamps in the back pasture. Instead of running the neutral, they wired hot to the switch and ground to neutral, so I was getting 110 VAC when putting my Fluke on a ground and neutral. I’d never seen this before. The electrician told me to just go ahead and splice the cut line back together and find another line for the fan run.
When I was putting it all back together, I noticed that while twisting the ground cable I was getting little sparks like you’d see if you touched a 9V battery to a paperclip. My meter shows 0 VAC on the ground, and the whole thing is tidied up in a plastic J box, but I’m sitting here with anxiety welling up in my chest like I should just go rip everything out of the wall and re run the whole thing. It’s technically like it was before I cut it, capped splices notwithstanding. Am I being ridiculous in my trepidation? Any similar stories that could put my mind at ease?
“I took 220 once. Knocked me out cold for about 5 minutes. Lucky I was wearing a hard hat. 110 doesn’t feel nice, but it’s more of a tickle compared to getting hit by a semi.”
Ok...2 questions. 1-Was the Hard Hat Damaged? 2-Was the Semi Damaged? And question 3 of 2: Were YOU damaged?
In my younger days I was a North Sea SAT Diver. All our electricity came from 220 generators. We had divers in the water just about round the clock, so when a relay went bad
everyone was informed that Power would be out for the 10-15 minutes, or so, that it wold take to switch out the relay.
Opened the relay box, turned on the “flashlight” (powerful underwater type), opened the knife switch at the incoming line from the generator, unscrewed the wires from the relay, and instead of reaching in and pulling them off the connectors, for no reason at all. I just popped them off with the screwdriver. The flash was like a welding arc, and damn near blinded me. I changed out the relay (had 2 divers in the water) working “HOT” wires, and when I threw the main knife switch back on nothing happened. Traced back to the generator and reset a circuit breaker and everything came back on line...all within a little over 10 minutes.
How was it possible that the relay box was hot after I had shut off the main switch???
My vision was pretty much back to normal, so I started checking things out.
SOME IDIOT HAD DIRECT WIRED THE GENERATOR INTO THE RELAY BOX BYPASSING THE SHUT OFF SWITCH, PROBABLY BEFORE THE SHUTOFF SWITCH LINE HAD BEEN RUN, AND THE DIRECT LINE HAD NEVER BEEN REMOVED!!!
Human STUPIDITY is the MOST DANGEROUS thing in the entire universe!!!
AGAIN, GOOD LUCK!!!
In the 2017 NEC, the rule is crystal clear; “The branch-circuit overcurrent device shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means where the switch or circuit breaker is within sight from the appliance or is lockable in accordance with 110.25”. “Within sight from the appliance” does not only mean that while flipping the switch, the electrician can see the appliance. It also means that while servicing the appliance, the switch can be seen by the electrician and it is within 50 feet.
Food for thought.
Sorry for the confusion. The switch in question is not for the fan I wired but for flood lamps outside of the property. Those lights are definitely not in sight of the switch.
The fan is now on a dedicated, non-switched circuit.
STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING OR YOU WILL BURN DOWN YOUR HOUSE!!
Hard hat was cracked, and I had a headache for a few hours. My entire body hurt for a couple of days, and I had the smell of burned hair in my nose for a bit. I was in my early 20s, so I bounced back pretty quick.
The wire strippers I was using were a total loss. They were “welded” shut.
A fan is not an appliance so to speak. It is more of a luminare. And no you do not have to see the switch from where the fan is located. The section you are quoting is about kitchen appliances - stove, oven, dishwasher, that are fastened in place.
I don’t think so. The (tankless) heater is (was) brand new. When I measured the current between grate and showerhead when it showed 110 VAC I was only getting a few mils. I refreshed the ground spike connection and created a heavy 4-position jumper that connects input cold, output hot, on both sides of the flex dielectric connectors. The ground spike fix alone stopped the big volts between grate and showerhead. Now the voltage between grate and head is only about 1.5 volts whether the water is running (meaning the heater is working) or not. If I had the short you’re thinking about I’d think I’d have huge current flow and about 60 watts of heat.
Is it voltage on a ground wire - green or bare copper - or on the white “neutral” wire. Voltage on a ground wire is asking for a lot of trouble and it’s amazing anything actually works. The white wire is “ok” except that it is backwards and therefore unsafe. It should be the black wire that is HV and the white wire should be grounded, though it is not a ground wire.
Also, get one of those little voltage detecting “pens” that beep and lights up when you touch it to a HV wire. First make sure it works by touching it to a live wire and then check everything around the circuit, outlet box etc. that is supposed to be “dead” to make sure it is really dead. And then check it again to make sure it is working. And check with a voltmeter as well. The advantage of the pens is that they will go off even when you cannot reach all the wire nuts or when you think everything is dead, but it turns out that there is another circuit coming into a box (multi-floor light switches in staircases are a huge problem this way)
I am an electrical engineer specializing in power electronics and some years ago put in a new service entrance and new wiring to replace the knob and tube in my former 1923 home. Being an electrical engineer and understanding how electricity and electronics works does not qualify one in knowing all the regulations in the NEC (National Electric Code). Of course, before redoing my house wiring I extensively studied the NEC.
When the inspector came he examined the service drop and the new entrance breaker panel. He then examined one very busy junction box (loaded to the maximum allowable number of wires) and said that he’d never seen anything so neat and well dressed in such a busy junction box. He also praised the way I properly used the screw terminals (tight three quarter wrap in the correct direction) rather than the push in knife edge contacts. He then signed off my permit and started to leave. I said, “Wait a minute, shouldn’t you examine all the other junction boxes?” He replied that he didn’t think that would be necessary.
The third wire safety ground is NEVER supposed to carry any current except fault current (and enough of it to be able to trip the circuit breaker). Safety ground is connected to neutral (the white wire) only at the main panel and this single connection point is also connected from the panel to earth ground, normally via copper rods. Water and other metal utility pipes are normally bonded to earth ground. Switches and outlets in plastic junction boxes must be connected to safety ground via the (bare) third wire. Old code allowed this connection to be made via metal junction boxes and spiral shielded cable.
Many new homes do not meet code because inspectors trust contractors with a “good” reputation. This is a form of corruption in my opinion. Older homes may often have dangerous unpermitted DIY wiring. Most often the problems arise from improper junction box connections rather than in the wires themselves (although occasionally wire that is improperly undersized for the circuit breaker may have been used). It is a lot of work and requires a good meter, logic and common sense, but it is usually possible to create a wiring diagram/schematic of the errant connections so that they may be corrected and the existing wires may be reused to meet code.
Everyone working on their own wiring should get an outlet tester, a good volt meter and read the NEC. Also where many junction boxes are daisy chained via knife edge connections in the outlets it is a good idea to switch the connections to the screw terminals. In my opinion, knife edge connections are really only good enough for the last junction box in the chain because knife edges make contact on only a very small surface area and may easily become high resistance if the connections oxidize. This is not a possibility with properly installed screw terminal connections.
First I would check to see if your former home owner may have reversed the hot, black wire, with the white neutral in an outlet in that circuit. I was going to tell you how to do it with a neon test light, but they don’t give out much light. Instead, order a Power Gear 3 Wire Receptacle Tester from Amazon for $5.44. It will tell you if you have any power swaps in the circuit and enable to tell what outlet has the problem. It is good to do such checks if you suspect a previous owner put wires on the wrong terminals.
The rule for all electrical wiring: The hot side is always the smaller plug-in on the outlet. It takes the black wires. It also is always wired with copper screws. The Neutral (silver screws) is always the larger outlet plug-in. It always takes white wires. The ground is always the plain copper wire or with green insulation. Some people make the mistake of putting on a new plug on a power cord and swap the hot with the neutral or hot with the ground wire. That can cause some big problems. Always observe the proper color code on the plug wiring. Your receptacle checker can also be used to check a power cord. Extension cords always have a color code: Black = hot, White = neutral and Green = earth ground.
Never use the earth ground as the neutral white wire. To do so is a criminal offense. The big difference between the ground wire and the neutral wire is that the ground wire is always grounded at 0 volts, the neutral wire is a return path of an unbalanced load, and while its voltage is typically 0 volts, it has the potential to pass much higher voltage through it. If you disconnect the neutral wire you will many times read voltage on this neutral wire due to the power passing through a connected device because of the ground wire error and running to the neutral end that was just disconnected. The main thing is, everything should conform to its color-coded polarity.
A ground wire should never have any voltage on it, so when you connect the ground wire like it was a neutral, the return path voltage on the ground wire is completely unexpected, and it usually runs a higher ampacity since it has a connected load. This creates a very dangerous situation for an electrician working on the power system. If the neutral wire (white) is hooked up to a ground wire for its return, a cardinal mistake is made. It should be hooked up to another neutral wire throughout the circuit back to the panel.
It sounds like your house electric system is grounded in more than one place (you said the previous owner was going directly to ground instead of running a neutral to complete a circuit).
It seems prudent to go to ground at every opportunity, and many folks drive ground rods all over the place thinking it's safer. In fact, the difference in electric potential between grounding locations can actually cause current flow between them, especially when one is actually being used to complete an electric circuit. This may be why you see a weak spark in your ground circuit.
Trying disconnecting the circuit with the offsite ground and see if you still see those weak sparks. If not, there's your trouble.
The problem is that somewhere along the (power) line you made a distinction btwn male and female, which created a politically incorrectly short circuit, thus resulting in sparks from Hell, seeing as this perversion is from children of Hell.
The voltage detecting pen didn’t pick up on the 25 VAC on the line, hence my zot.
When I put my meter to work, I got 110 VAC ground to neutral and 120 VAC ground to ground, but this was specifically only on this circuit. When testing the ground block and neutral blocks in the breaker box, there was no current, which lead me to question the switch. The voltage is confined to the downstream from the switch. This still isn’t okay, but it’s less drama than if the entire house had current on ground, which it does not.
We found out the hard way that we only have one ground to our well. Lightning struck near our well a few years ago and fried a lot of stuff in our house, including our TV.
I’m totally confused as to why you would want to even remove the switch.
And all your splices have to be in accessible boxes. Absolutely no wires twisted together inside a wall.
Ask a plumber. Its a common problem with an easy fix. One or both of your heating coils are leaky. Trying to make the voltage go away by superior grounding is like trying to fix a leaky roof with a bucket.
There should be zero leakage from electricity to water. The coil insulation is failing.
Smart man; you know enough to know when you don’t know enough, AND you fully appreciate the cost of getting it wrong. I never feel bad about being too careful with electricity.
Applies to anything with a 1/8 hp or large motor. Having an old house I understand the issues of address current code, but at least you will have the knowledge. Good luck.
All of the splices are in approved j boxes, stripped to an appropriate exposure, and twisted with gauge appropriate caps. Grounds are twisted and crimped with copper sleeves. Not my first rodeo there.
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