Posted on 02/24/2020 6:54:56 AM PST by Kaslin
According to a new Lifeway Research survey, while 47 percent of “mainline” pastors now support same-sex “marriage,” only 8 percent of evangelical pastors do. More specifically, “Presbyterian or Reformed (49%), Methodist (47%), Lutheran (35%) and Christian/Church of Christ pastors (20%) are more likely to see nothing wrong with same-sex marriage than Baptist (3%) or Pentecostal pastors (1%).”
None of this is surprising in the least.
First, as noted by Scott McConnell, executive director of LifeWay Research, “The movement we see among pastors’ views of same-sex marriage has less to do with their denominational tradition than their view of the Bible.”
Accordingly, those who hold most faithfully to the authority of Scripture will be the least inclined to change their views on homosexuality. Put another way, those who believe the Bible to be God’s inspired, unchanging Word will be the least likely to compromise their convictions based on societal changes.
“An evangelical distinctive,” McConnell continued, “is the ultimate authority the Bible has over one’s beliefs despite changing cultural perspectives. It is not surprising then that evangelical pastors across different denominations continue to view same-sex marriage as wrong through this lens.”
That’s because the Bible is unambiguous in its condemnation of homosexual unions. Under all circumstances, regardless of how much love or commitment is involved, they are sinful in God’s sight and contrary to His established order.
At the same time, mercy and forgiveness are offered for all, including practicing homosexuals. The Word is equally clear on this (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
That’s why, when I had a mini-debate with “gay Christian” poster boy Matthew Vines, he could not offer a single Scripture verse in support of his position. (For a graphic illustration of the scriptural bankruptcy of the “gay Christian” argument, see here.)
When it comes to “mainline” pastors, which these days primarily refers to “progressive” or “liberal” pastors, they are more inclined to interpret Scripture through the lens of contemporary culture than to evaluate contemporary culture through the lens of Scripture.
As a result, they are more likely to disbelieve fundamental, biblical truths, including: the Bible as God’s infallible Word; salvation coming only through Jesus; the virgin birth and the resurrection; eternal reward and eternal punishment.
That’s why it’s no surprise that these same pastors, who have waffled on the most foundational issues, will waffle on things like gay “marriage” too. What else could we expect?
Ironically, it is the Pentecostals, who are often derided for their belief that the Spirit continues to speak today, who are the most conservative of all, with only 1 percent of their pastors affirming same-sex “marriage.”
But that, too, should come as no surprise. That’s because the reason Pentecostals believe that prophecy and tongues are for today is because they believe that the Word of God means what it says. That’s also why they reject same-sex “marriage.”
Pentecostals also emphasize the importance of the new birth and life in the Spirit. This means that the vast majority of their adherents will have a greater devotion to the Lord and His Word than those of “mainline” churches, which often downplay the concept of personal relationship with God.
All this would be in keeping with a 10-country religious survey published in 2006, titled, “Spirit and Power – A Ten Country Survey of Pentecostals.”
The survey indicated that, “In addition to their distinctive religious experiences, renewalists also stand out for the intensity of their belief in traditional Christian doctrines and practices. For instance, in eight of the 10 countries surveyed (all except the U.S. and Chile), majorities of nonrenewalist Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word; but this view is even more common among pentecostals than among non-renewalist Christians. Similarly, large majorities of all Christians, renewalists and nonrenewalists alike, believe that miracles still occur today as in ancient times. But this belief tends to be even more intense among pentecostals and, to a lesser extent, charismatics than among nonrenewalist Christians.”
It is true that, according to the recent Lifeway Research survey, the more educated the pastor, the more likely he (or she) was to accept same-sex “marriage.” Specifically, “Those with a doctorate (27%) or a master’s degree (32%) are more likely to support same-sex marriage than pastors with a bachelor’s degree (9%) or no college degree (6%).”
But, once again, it is also more likely that many of those who pursued more advanced degrees view the Bible through a more modernist lens than those who chose not to pursue such degrees. Education, in and of itself, does not guarantee orthodoxy. This is especially so when the seminaries attended are themselves liberal.
Interestingly, “Pastors of churches with fewer than 50 in attendance are more likely to see nothing wrong with two people of the same gender getting married (33%) than those at churches with 100 or more in attendance (19%).”
This would confirm what I have written about numerous times, namely, that “progressive Christianity” is doomed to fail.
That’s why, while 47 percent of “mainline” pastors now affirm same-sex relations, they represent an increasingly small minority of American pastors as a whole as their congregations are dwindling. In stark contrast, Pentecostal-Charismatic Christianity is exploding around the globe.
One group adheres more faithfully to the Word and relies on the Spirit’s power. The other does not.
The results are as expected.
Therefore the man is being purified from bad works (sins) to which he still has some attachment. He is unquestionably saved: "...but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
The idea that this purgation from sin through or by means of fire (διὰ πυρός) shows a hard, unloving, merciless aspect, supposedly, in God's character, is completely wrong.
Here the context is MOST important...and this emphasis is always on the grave consequences and impending pains brought on by attachment to unworthy and "inflammable" things.
The man is, in the words of other, often-ignored Scripture verses, "snatched as a brand from the burning" (Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; Jude 1:23). He is even, in the words of Peter, "scarcely" saved (1 Peter 4:18) The emphasis in this passage is not that he is "cast INTO" this burning, but that he is "saved FROM" it.
Just before that, Peter says that Noah was saved "through water" (δι ὕδατος). 1 Peter 3:20. Here's a beautiful but paradoxical thing: Noah is saved, but a whole world of evil is destroyed. God is credited with both saving the man, and doing it in the midst of the indisputably arduous and rather terrifying destruction of sin.
The Biblical doctrine of purifying (whether seen as "purifying fire" or "purifying water" -- these things are metaphor, not literal) is a merciful one.
To use another example: a purifying medication. Say you had a disfiguring, potentially deadly disease. Say you were told that the leading world expert in treating this disease turns out to be a Doctor who has taken a strong interest in you, personally. He genuinely cares for you. And He's the one Person on the whole planet who knows exactly what to do.
The treatment will be painful but absolutely sure of success. He will never leave your side. And when it is done, you will not only be "recovered," you will be splendid and glorious.
That is the purification process from the Genius Healer that heals you from the inside. It is your guaranted rejuvenation --- not only that, but what Peter elsewhere calls Théōsis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) becoming a partaker in the divine nature --- and this is what we mean by salvation.
It is given to us to share, pure and perfect, in the Nature of the all-Holy Trinity.
Nothing could be better than that.
No man who is saved needs to be further purified from anything.
The new spiritual nature we get in the new birth has no attachment to sin. The part that has any attachment to sin is gone when we die and all that's left is the new spiritual nature which has no sin and has no attachment to sin.
God gives us the righteousness of Christ. That means NO attachment to sin.
God does not reform our souls or bodies; He gives us new sinless ones.
And the sin was dealt with at the cross. There's nothing else left to deal with.
You are starting from a false Catholic premise that somehow the soul which is saved can still be attached to sin and that somehow suffering can cleanse that.
Only the blood of Jesus can cleanse from sin. Nothing else can.
The snatching away of the Church is an event where you will receive a new body and a new behavior mechanism, to match your alive forever more spirit.
God will bring with Jesus the spirits of those who have died in Christ. The shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet are the triggers for raising eternal habitation bodies fit for eternity and mechanisms fit for righteousness without sinning.
John (in 1 John 3:2) tells you that when Jesus appears to take us to the Father's House we shall see Him as He is now, glorified, because we will be like Him, transformed into glorified beings fit for Heaven.
The spirits GOD will bring with Jesus will be 'zipped' into these new bodies and we who are alive at that time will also be changed in the twinkling of an eye, to inhabit new bodies and new behavior mechanisms and be caught up together with the dead who have been united with raised up/created in an instant new bodies and souls.
I will be emailing to you a couple of essays revealing more detail on this subject.
The flesh?... It will NEVER be clean, that's why GOD tells you in 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-58 that HE will create a brand new body and behavior mechanism for the born again when Jesus returns for us as He promised in John 14. As Paul said, in your flesh dwells no good thing. It is destined for shedding, not cleaning up via imaginary suffering in a mythical purgatory.
Do you believe in the snatching away of ALL believers living and dead? God makes Promises and ALWAYS keeps them. There is coming an event so radical that it can only be called spuer natural. Be apart of it, please.
"If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we’re not being truthful to ourselves.(1 John 1:8)Then he immediately goes onto say,
"If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
Notice that word habit. Making it our "habit" to confess our sins, entails realizing that we sin habitually. Repeatedly. And thus need to confess and confess again.
John's writing here (I recommend reading the whole of John 1) shows the back-and-forth between living sinlessly, and then sinning again. John mentions the need to pray for a brother (a believer!) who sins, that God would give him life.
So you can say a person can be in a "state of grace," but you can't really say a person is "saved" in the permanent, changelesss, definitive sense until they have reached a perfect, definitive state, which is Heaven. Everything from here to Heaven is changeable, which is why Peter and the others say we must remain vigilant because our Enemy the Devil is still on the prowl, seeking to devour souls.
Why would we be told to be vigilant, if the devil no longer menaced us? Why would John urge us earnestly to pray that God would give a sinning brother life, if that life were already, always and in every way secure?
It's a battle to the death. Only by remaining in Jesus will we share in His victory.
After the Rapture, if you remain alive following the catastrophic effect of the Rapture, do not take the Mark of the Beast. I truly fear you will be around to hear the command, so don't take the Mark and throw off your pride and call out to ONLY Jesus to save you. ONLY full trust in Him alone will keep you from the Judgment and damnation.
Elsie, the following is not written for the born again: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” The bride of Christ is not sleeping in the dust of the earth.
2 things that verse DOESN'T say...1: It doesn't say the man will burn but says his works will burn...And 2: the man isn't burned (punished) by fire, he is saved (so as) by fire...
The man is not saved by the fire that burns up his bad work BUT saved so as (LIKE WITH) fire...When he stands before the Father, there will be no record of bad works for the Father to see...
Nothing gets burned...There is no fire...There is no purgatory...The only place there is fire is in hell...(Read the rich man and Lazarus)...Lazarus doesn't get burned...Does Lazarus represent the Catholic in purgatory or is it the rich man???
The bad works are purged from the record...The good works stay to count for future 'awards'...
Limbo is a place,or rather a state of being, meaning literally, at the "threshhold." It is called Limbo of the Fathers or Limbo of the Patriarchs. IIRC David called it "resting with your ancestors." And many called it "in the bosom of Abraham" or less precisely, "in the abode of the dead." It was a temporary state which no longer exists.
Whatever you call it, it is the state of being an OT saint or friend of God, who had to wait for Jesus to open the gates of heaven. These are the souls whom Jesus visited between His burial and His resurrection (as recounted in the book of Hebrews), in order to lead those blessed souls into the now-opened Kingdom of Heaven.
Thanks for asking.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
However, that sin is dealt with at the cross with the blood of Jesus and no other way.
Scripture does not bear out that suffering purifies us from any alleged *attachment* to sin.
No such thing as Limbo either.
Hades was the waiting place of the dead, with the paradise side, that Lazarus was on, and the Ghenna side that the rich man was on.
When Jesus died, the paradise side was emptied as Jesus took them all to heaven.
But the rich man was stuck where he was forever, and it was impossible for him to cross over.
He was NOT in purgatory and neither was Lazarus, as Lazarus was not suffering.
Exactly: "waiting place", a very definition of Limbo. Thank you for explaining it better than I did.
My apologies for a not-very-good summary. I should have explained there have been different words or phrases used for this same mysterious place.
Peter calls it "prison" in his first letter,(1 Peter 3:19).
Jesus also uses the word "prison" but it seems *not* exactly the same as "prison" in 1 Peter. Rather, in Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59, Jesus was speaking of the place where souls go who have not "settled with the opponent quickly while on the way to court with him." In other words, there is some unresolved conflict that has to be settled. The analogy is with a person going to "debtors' prison"--- and one is advised, "Don't wait! Get it settled before you die!"Anyway, in reference to 1 Peter, a term was needed for something more like an anteroom, waiting place, threshold. "Sheol" is a good available word I think, in Aramaic.
The place you describe (above) is exactly this place: not hell, not purgatory, but not "yet" heaven, because those destined for heaven had to wait until the opening of "the gate" was accomplished.
Thus the term "limbo" means the same as "Sheol," they were at the threshold or waiting room of heaven, awaiting entrance. Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham. Synonyms: Hades, "resting with your ancestors" as in 2 Samuel 7:12 and Deuteronomy 31:16 and 2 Chronicles 17:11.
So we will again have a body to live in (in heaven)...
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies,
(Heavenly)
and bodies terrestrial:
(Earthly)
but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Our bodies went into the ground or sea and perished...We must be reconstituted and outfitted with a heavenly body...One that can make the trip thru the cosmos without the use of a space shuttle...
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Here it shows those asleep are actually dead...
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
What is your opinion, about what was going on, in the days of Noah? Genesis 6. Who were the spirits in prison (Tartarus) that Jesus preached (proclaimed) to? What do you think He may have said to them? This place Tartarus, must be some place really bad, described as far below hades, as the earth is below Heaven. I already have my own opinion, but I want to know what a catholic trained mind thinks of it. Remember, I also had a catholic trained mind at one time.
Hmm...that's interesting, I had not heard of that before. What is the source?
Bad analogy...There is nothing in 1 Cor 3 that even hints at a Christian experiencing pain...
The man is, in the words of other, often-ignored Scripture verses, "snatched as a brand from the burning" (Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; Jude 1:23). He is even, in the words of Peter, "scarcely" saved (1 Peter 4:18) The emphasis in this passage is not that he is "cast INTO" this burning, but that he is "saved FROM" it.
Nope...Nothing in there that suggests that a man is snatched out of anything, rendering your 'brand plucked from the fire' completely out of context...No man goes into a fire to be plucked out of...It's his works that are thrown into the fire, not the man...
Therefore the man is being purified from bad works (sins) to which he still has some attachment. He is unquestionably saved: "...but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
The idea that this purgation from sin through or by means of fire (διὰ πυρός) shows a hard, unloving, merciless aspect, supposedly, in God's character, is completely wrong.
No man gets purged from sin at the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ...It's the man's record/evidence of sin committed by his/her sinful flesh that gets burned...There is NO attachment to sin for the Christian at the judgment...
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
"If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we’re not being truthful to ourselves.(1 John 1:8)
Then he immediately goes onto say,
"If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
Notice that word habit. Making it our "habit" to confess our sins, entails realizing that we sin habitually. Repeatedly. And thus need to confess and confess again.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word 'habit' doesn't exist in those verses...Probably because we are not to ask for forgiveness out of habit...Christians don't ask out of habit...We ask out of conviction...Day or/and night...Not just in a confessional...In fact, never in a confessional...I'd never confess my sin to another man...
So you can say a person can be in a "state of grace," but you can't really say a person is "saved" in the permanent, changelesss, definitive sense until they have reached a perfect, definitive state, which is Heaven. Everything from here to Heaven is changeable, which is why Peter and the others say we must remain vigilant because our Enemy the Devil is still on the prowl, seeking to devour souls.
I am "saved" in the permanent, changelesss, definitive sense...Sure, I can say that and mean it...Know it...
Well it can't be both...It's either a 'place' or a state of mind...
It was a temporary state which no longer exists.
It was a temporary place called Abraham's Bosom and Paradise...
In the parable. Lazarus is in Limbo and the Rich Man is in hell. Nobody in the parable is in purgatory.
It is NOT a parable...
So where then is purgatory??? Or is that a state of mind???
The source is not Biblical, as far as where Tartarus is, but the bottom line is, it’s probably a horrible place. IIRC, the word is used only in 2 Peter 2:4 (not the first pope) but not the Tartarus of Greek mythology, where the titans are imprisoned. The context is Genesis 6, 2nd Peter (not the first pope) and Jude 6, so you can make up your own mind what Tartarus means, and who is imprisoned there. I already have my own opinion of who is imprisoned there.
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